| Summary: | THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Oral History Office SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series INTERVIEW WITH: Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) DATE: 16 December 1993 PLACE: Houston, Texas INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe W: This is Cheri Wolfe and it's December 16, 1993, I'm in the home of photographer Benny Joseph in Houston, and we're going to be talking about the civil rights movement in Houston and its aftermath. Where were you born, Mr. Joseph? J: I was born in Lake Charles, Louisiana. W: Uh-huh. J: December 10, 1924. W: And your parents' names? J: My mother was named Alberta Joseph and my daddy was named Willie (Willis ?) Joseph. W: What did they do? J: I don't know about him. He died when I was two years old. He had appendicitis. And my mother was a domestic worker. I don't know too much about my . in fact, I don't remember my father at all. And my sister was only 10 days old when he died. So she doesn't know anything about him. In fact, I haven't even seen a picture of him, you know. Nobody in the family hasn't . even know what he looks like. So we have. I have tried to find pictures of him, but I don't know too much about his family. I felt bad one time. A young lady called here one time and asked me if I had any relatives in Grand Prairie, and I concentrated and I said, "No, I believe not." The only Grand Prairie I knew was over there by . up there around Dallas. And there's supposed to be a Grand Prairie, Louisiana. Not too far from where my mother's home is in Opelousas. I never heard of it. (laughter) And I didn't . didn't find out who she was or what she wanted. And after I told her I didn't have any relatives in this little town, we just hung up. Then when I was visiting my cousin one time, which he isn't much older than I am, and I started telling him about that, he said, "Yeah, your daddy's from Grand Prairie. Right down the highway from here." I was in Opelousas at that time when I was talking about it. Then I said, "Well, I'll bet she was trying to look for some of her relatives. (laughter) And it was . I don't know too many Josephs any where. Anyway, I got on a tangent there . W: No, that's alright. I was wondering . what was it like growing up black in Louisiana? Did your mother . J: No, I didn't live there. I came to Houston when I was two years old. So I don't remember coming here. . W: So you've spent most of your life here in Houston? J: Yeah, oh, yeah, uh-huh. W: How did you decide to become a photographer? J: I think . I think I got my inspiration from when I was in high school. I had a friend who lived in the neighborhood, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 3 he used . I think he was in a chemistry class, he developed film in his bathroom, and I used to go over to his house and I would go in the darkroom, I couldn't see what he was doing, but he would . when he'd get through I'd see this roll of film had been developed and . I think, evidently, it was that. Because when I went into the service I said, well, I'm going to have some paid educational time when I come out of service and I didn't know what I wanted to do, I had no dream I'd want to be an entrepreneur at one time. So I thought about taking photography. When I came out of the service, well, Houston Junior College, which eventually got to be TSU now, they called it Houston . Houston College for Negroes at that time . Junior College for Negroes . that's what it was . Junior . W: '40s? J: Yeah, '46. And it was located over in the Yates High School Building, in the evenings from 3 to 9, and that's when we'd go to school at 3 o'clock in the evening, after the high school time. So we had a photographer, I guess you've heard about Teal, no, . that's right, Teal, A.C. Teal was a famous black photographer here in Houston that took all the schools, school work and stuff, all over Texas. And he had opened up a school in conjuction with the junior college. And so I started under his school in the Houston Junior College, and that lasted for about a year. In '47 they had built a TSU school. So he was Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 4 either going to have to teach at TSU, because they weren't going to accept him under the conditions they had then, his school, he was independent and we'd go to his school and then go over to TSU for literary classes. So, he didn't want to do that, so they started school and didn't have any teachers for our . well, they used some teachers that were regular photographers, you know. And I can remember they got about 8 . 8 of the top students out of our class, to go to the University of Houston, to train to be teachers. You know, they gave us extensive courses and they started with the skills essential to photography. And we would go to school over there from 9 o'clock until about 9:30, I mean, about 10, 10:30, something like that. W: At night? J: At night, yes. Leave TSU and go over there. So, that lasted until . (name - inaudible) . tried to get into Texas University, and go to law school. So they decided to make a law school at TSU. And call it Texas University . call it . they made a state school out of it. See, the University of Houston was administrator of TSU when they . in fact, they were the administrator of Houston College the whole time they were operating. And that took them out of the administration of the University of Houston, so that knocked out my little class. So, I guess we struggled on with the little . teachers we had - until I graduated. That was the end of that.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 5 W: And then you became a professional photographer? J: Yeah. W: Or you started working . J: Well, I started . me and a friend of mine, we were in the same class together. In fact, he left our school and went up to New Haven, went to a photographer's school up in New Haven. And he got a little bit more extensive training than I did, which was Provost, I guess you heard about Provost? So me and Provost, we started . there was nothing . no kind of agreement . we just started a business together. And this was in 1950. And I struggled along with that. Sometime I'd quit and go somewhere and get a job. I got a job one time in a place. First time I really experienced working under some extreme prejudice condition. (laughter) W: Where was it? J: It was a place called Texas Equipment Company. What they done was build, repair, tractors and heavy equipment, you know. Draglines and stuff like that. And I applied for a job as a mechanic helper, when I went to school I took automoble mechanics, after I passed photographers. And I applied for a job as a mechanic helper, and so this agency sent me over there. When I got over there they gave me a broom and told me to keep the floor clean, and (laughter) . photographer . I mean, a mechanic . do you want to hold . let me . he didn't know . no, let me hold it . you know, some kind Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 6 of deal like that. Then they wanted me to clean . had taken in a tractor or something on a trade-in, well, I would clean it up, clean all of the grease and oil and stuff off of it with a steam-cleaning gun and when they'd get it repaired then I would take it and paint it . spray-gun. When I wasn't doing that, then I would clean up the place. And then one of the mechanics told me one day, says, "Benny, ." . we had about 3 mechanics, and the one they called 'Baldy,' one they called 'Shorty,' and one they called . I remember he had a nickname . they used . none of them their names . W: These are all black men? J: No, these were the mechanics, the white . W: Okay. J: Shorty came up to me one day, he says, "Benny, I want you to call Mr. Baldy, Mr. Baldy." . I can't remember what the other guy was named . there were 3 of them . "And I want you to call him Mr. So and So and . " I said, "Well, why should I?" You know, just like that. And he said, . I said, "I'm a man just like they are. I don't see why I have to Mister them." you know. (laughter) It went on like that . I had the whole . in that shop. In fact, I wasn't . intended to work that long. I just wanted to work long enough to get a few paydays, you know, to pay my car note. See, because I was trying to make it in photography and it wasn't paying off, so, . He got after me one day about drinking out of the Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 7 fountain. He had a fountain in the shop. They had another black fellow working there, he'd keep him a cup hanging up on the wall, and he'd take his cup and draw his water and drink and he wanted me to . this same guy, Shorty, wanted me to get a cup and do the same thing. So I told him, "Well, it's not sanitary to have a cup hanging up out here in this dust and stuff. When I sweep the shop ." I said, "If you want me to drink out of that fountain . if you don't want me to drink out of that fountain . tell the boss-man to put some papercups . " they had a dispenser up there, but they never had no cups in it, you know. I . ". tell him to put some cups in that dispenser and I'll use it. I know I'm not going to hang no cup out here in this dusty place though." "Well, you should drink out of . you should drink out of the fountain one more time, I'll kick your ass." That's what he told me. I said, "Well, you've got one too. We'll just kick each other's." (laughter) And that went on, you know, went on and on for . that stuff. So we got . Jack would always make the coffee for coffee-break, and one day Jack wasn't there and they asked me to make it. So I made the coffee, set the cups . they had a little ole table . like a hospital table . they keep the cups on the bottom, you know, when you're not using them, then you could wash them and put them at the bottom, then put them on the top for the coffee break. So everybody came by and get their cup and pour their coffee. So I came Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 8 by and got me a cup and poured me some coffee, and the foreman walked over to me and says, "I want you to . get you a special cup and kept it down at the bottom of the cabinet to use, you know." I said, "What's wrong with these? I'll have to wash them, why can't I wash mine like I have to wash yours?" you know. And that, you know, that kind of thing. They just don't want you . I told them I wasn't no coffee drinker, I didn't have to drink no coffee, it wasn't my job to make it. I didn't make it no more. If Jack wasn't there, they made their own coffee, see. That's the kind of attitude I had on that job, so like I said, I wasn't . didn't intend to work there too long. But I worked there about 3 or 4 months until the foreman one day asked me to go on his place and help him plant some postholes. He was putting up a fence and wanted me to dig some postholes to help him, you know. And I said was I going to get . on Saturday's we'd get time and a half and I asked him whether he was going to pay me time and a half, he said, no, I'm going to pay you straight time. I think I was making $.50 an hour at that time. And now, people in the office, if they had some little yards, I'd go cut their grass on Saturday evening, when I'd come out, take my card, punch it when I come in, well, that's time on the company. Well, he couldn't do that, see. So, the next morning . the next week-end he fired me, told me he couldn't use me no more. Well, I expected that; it didn't surprise me. But those are kinds of feelings I've Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 9 had. I mean, it kept me frustrated all the time. I was almost as glad to get away from there as I was working there. But by that time I had gotten caught up with my little deals and I didn't have that much expense, because I still lived with my mother, you know. Then . you'd be surprised how photography just gradually picked up, picked up. So I got married in '53 and I said, well, I'd better find me another job and be secured, but I can't depend on the photography, you know, to take care of the family. So I started working at the VA hospital, and doing a little photography on the side. So, me and Provost didn't get along too well, so I separated from him, put me in a little dark-room at home. And then I got too much business to . I was working from 12 to 8 at the VA hospital, and I'd be at home all day long, you know, in the daytime from 8 until time to go back to work. I'd sleep until noon, when I'd get a chance . 2 or 3 hours, that's all I needed anyhow. And then I decided I would open up a studio. I needed to get in the eye of the public. I'm getting too much business here. So I did and I almost killed myself, you know, with that kind of arrangement I had - working from 12 to 8 and try to run that studio from 8 to 6 in the evening then go home and sleep until 11 and go back to work at 12. (laughter) And I did that for a while, until . then I started getting jobs at night. We had a lot of social clubs here in Houston. They would have dances all through the week. And I'd be taking pictures for Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 10 those dances and things at the El Dorado. That was one of our ballrooms here. And that would last until it was time for me to go back to work. See, I wouldn't get a chance to sleep, wouldn't even go to bed, didn't even pull off my shoes, I'd come on home to the studio and at night I'd go on some job and that'd keep me going until 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock when I'd have to go to the VA. Well, it just so happened I was working on the psychiatric department and if I could catch a quiet night and a good companion, you know, I could get me a couple of hours of sleep or something. That's all I would need. I . , you know, just enough time to close my eyes and wake up. I managed that until . actually, . I worked with a white boy one night. I said, "Now ." I told him, I said, "I had one of those days, I ain't had no sleep since I left here." (laughter) And I said, "I'm going back in this chair and if a supervisor comes, you drop them keys." Because they had to open two doors to get in. And I said, "You be sure you drop them keys and wake me up. And be sure I'm woken before you let her in." Shoot, when I looked up she was shining a flashlight in my eyes, I was just gone. (laughter) So they put me on days and that's when I resigned because I couldn't work days and still do photography, you know. W: But by then your business had picked up enough to .? J: Yeah, I was making enough money to operate, to pay the business off, but I wasn't making enough money to take care Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 11 of the family. So, I worked . that happened in July and about December I was about 6 months behind in my bills, the little bills I had. My wife had started working at one time and she gets pregnant and then I got all them bills . she didn't open up because she thought she was going to be able to pay them and all those kinds of things, you know. So, I got my little . my retirement payment after 6 months and I caught up on all my bills. In about 6 months I was behind again. Then . that's when my business started going, then I got automobiles paid up, then I made a little money from then on. That was in '59 - '60. Yeah, I left there in '59, that's when it was. I opened the studio in '58, I had been working there since '53, about 6 years. In '59 . I just couldn't take it . I'd almost killed myself . I'd be driving around with my eyes . falling asleep . people blowing their horn waking me up . I'd get at a red-light and . (laughter) it was pitiful. So I said, I can't take this . I'm going to kill myself. So, I was going home one night and ran off in the ditch and don't know . I didn't know where I wanted to turn, it looked like I just wanted to turn in a driveway. I don't know what reason I ran off the edge of it and run into the ditch. And things started happened that . like I . going to work one night, the same route I travelled every day, then I got on the corner and I couldn't recognize nothing. You know, I was just dead for sleep, I don't know what it was. I said, "Now ." Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 12 I didn't know whether to turn right, turn left, then when I found myself, I was going back home. (laughter) W: To bed probably. J: I don't know, I guess so. You know, they were giving me trouble about coming in late anyhow, "Boy," I said, "I'm going to catch it tonight." Late again, late again. But I finally got over that hump and I was at a good location, I was right over there across from TSU. In fact, where I was, is their campus now. And I just had a tremendous business, especially with those students. Everytime they'd change semesters ., they'd need proof . students come over there, they'd want to send pictures home, . mothers and things. W: So you always were free-lance? You never were associated with a newspaper or .? J: No, I run my own studio. I had my own studio. I specialized in portraits. But I'd done some of everything, you know. All this stuff here, like, well, people just got . like the NACP and I got affiliated with . got connected with a lot of organizations. They were . But I never . well, it wasn't no free-lancing, when I . in fact, when I packed my cameras away I was going to get paid, you know. (laughter) Somebody was going to pay me, somebody hired me, because I just didn't go out there and shoot pictures for nothing. I mean, speculating! No, I'd never do that. W: Did you work for whites? Ever? Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 13 J: Who? W: For white people? I mean . J: Oh, yeah. I had a few jobs. I remember one time a guy came to me, he wanted a ., he'd invented a paint machine, not a machine, but a . I guess you'd call it that . you know, it was a gadget where he sat a bucket of . a gallon of paint on a heating unit and heat this paint up and he would spray it while it was hot. So he wanted some pictures of that to run for advertisements. . not there now, but they opened up . this and that. And they've done everything to . they'll clean it, they'll paint it, they'll wash it and wax it, you know, all these different procedures, so I took pictures of every little procedure they had. That was the biggest job I ever had in a white company. . I really didn't have no facilities, that was before I opened my studio, because I had to wash all those pictures in my bathtub. (laughter) And so, and some of them I couldn't, you know, like, I would go . we'd have a home show or something and they . United Gas Company would give a stove away for . to a certain winner, . winner. Well, they'd want a picture of that, you know, a picture of this stove . or whatever they gave away . So I went up . which is Intex Gas Company now, they were the United then, so I went up to the office one day to deliver the pictures and he just had a big old table just full of pictures, I said, "You're getting a lot of pictures made ." He said, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 14 "Yeah." I said, "Do you do them yourself or do you use independent photographers?" He said, "Well, we do both." I said, "Well," I gave him my card, I said, "Why don't you give me . call me sometime and let me make some of this money." (laughter) 'Cause I'd never really done no commercial work for white people . I was getting peanuts for my little, you know, little jobs that I was going on, compared to what they get. And . but I never heard from him. I had an advertising agency one time, he got me to do a job for a guy made . it was always somebody who was struggling . who invented something and they needed some cheap pictures, I guess. He'd invented some kind of cabinet where you could step up and reach the cabinet and just pull it down, instead of standing up on a stool or something to reach up there to get it. It was a neat thing, but I never . it never did . I never seen any of them, you know. Plus the fact he had to take me out to Pasadena, Texas. (laughter) You heard about Pasadena? W: Uh-huh. J: And . to do this job and they had a white model and all this stuff and I really was scared because there weren't no black people in Pasadena at that time. I think there's a few up there now, but at that time . no black people . they even . (inaudible) . We went in a home, some new apartment or building or something, to take these pictures. But that came out alright. That's the last job I done for . that he had Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 15 me . I think he had me do one or two jobs. Because he had connections, you know, with . advertising agency, . pictures. W: Tell me about the civil rights movement in Houston. I mean, you knew everybody; you were working for the NAACP . J: Yeah. W: . and all the social groups and what were those . like? J: Well, it took me by suprise one time, I think . these kids met up at the YMCA . it was right down the street from TSU . about two blocks. And they had meetings over there in the gym and well, in fact, they had started all over the country. And so one day they went . I think the Union Station was the first place . the pictures I made then were the first place they . they tried to integrate. W: Is this the Progressive Youth Association? That you . J: Yeah, uh-huh. Um-huh. W: . that you .? Okay. J: Uh-huh. And I think they had a march from TSU down to this Union Station. I don't think they had a parade, . you had to go down there and stop it every night . change . keep doing, and I think some of them got arrested. I really don't remember all the details. I'm sure some of them . they had some lawyers . probably got them out of jail with a bond or something. Then the next time they integrated . we used Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 16 to have a Winegarden store on Alemeda, which was . in '61 . evidently . Winegarden's was still serving white people at the time; they didn't serve blacks. This must have been the '40 era, really, . black, you know . the Winegarden is across . on Alemeda . W: Is this still 3rd Ward, part of 3rd Ward? I mean, I know it was just . J: I don't know, I wouldn't think so. . (inaudible) . is the name . is called . whatever it was named after, you know, this is Riverside Terrace over here, that was Riverside. 3rd Ward stopped at Alabama. W: Okay. J: . I used to live on it when I was a kid, raised up down there. We were on the borderline of . we had . between this block . they had nothing in between this block between Riverside and the 3rd Ward. Then . is the next street and then the white folks live on . But . when I was a kid, we used to play football on our side . you know I told you there was a block between us with nothing on it . and half of that block . we'd play football over here and every now and then a white group would play on their side, you know. So I told a fellow, I said, "Let's ask them white boys if they want to play us a football game." (laughter) So we did and boy, we got it on. So we had a big game going. Boy, the mommas came out . the white mommas came out their kitchens Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 17 and stopped that game . said we couldn't play together. Sure did. And I thought it was awful, you know. W: How old were you? J: I imagine I was about 10. 11, 10, 12, something like that. W: So it didn't occur to you that that was a bad thing to do or that would be a problem? J: Well, I knew it wasn't . they didn't allow us to play together, you know; we just wanted to see what would happen. We didn't think the mommas was going to come out of . out of the house, you know, and stop the game. (laughter) They sure did. They called . they called their kids home. W: Did you have a sense that history was happening? J: No. W: I mean, you have the photos of the Union Station thing, did you just hear about that and go down? Or did they hire you to come down and take photographs? J: I'm sure they did. Mr. Meese, the guy who operated the YMCA. I never knew definitely, but I think he was the one that instigated these kids to start the sit-ins. And he probably called me to go down there and take some pictures, you know. Because I did a lot of pictures for the Y and . but I didn't . I didn't . nobody didn't send me to this Winegarden sit-in. They had one down there. And I just didn't . like I said, I never had . I never voluntarily go nowhere . take no Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 18 pictures unless I was hired. But just to create history, . well, if it wasn't a buck in it for me, I didn't bother about it. (laughter) You know, my main interest was making a dollar. And I remember . if I should go down there and take some pictures of this, because this would be history. But I said . uh-uh, there ain't no money in it. So I didn't bother about it. W: Were you a member of the NAACP or ? J: Yeah. W: Were you involved in some of the things that were going on? Personally? Not as a . J: No, no, uh-uh. Unless it was, you know, the only time I get involved was when they hired me. But I just had a membership, just to help support it. (phone rings) W: We were just talking about your involvment with the civil rights movement. J: Yeah, uh-huh. W: Did you . was there some sort of atmosphere of excitement . were people . were blacks really moving towards change, or planning, or aware of what was happening? I mean, was there some organized effort that everybody got behind to make some changes here in Houston? J: Yeah, that Progressive Youth Association. In fact, there was a lot of people behind that. We had a group of black folks that were influential in the city, and they were backing this. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 19 Because when they first . after this thing went on for so long . W: You mean the efforts to integrate the . J: Yeah, integrate, uh-huh. W: . . Accommodations company, uh-huh. J: Then the Restuarant Association . and this group of black people, I don't know if they had a name or whether it was an organization behind it or what, I can't remember. But it was . I know the Business and Professional Men's Club, it was a black group and most of these people belonged to that, now whether they was behind it or not, I don't know. I belong to that too. But anyway, they got together with the Restuarant Association and they . instead of having them all protest because they were going to go downtown and protest at the theaters, and some of the other restuarants downtown, so they made an agreement that all of the restuarants would be desegregated. That was voluntarily done, to all of them. So, that's progress, I could stand for that. Until the Supreme Court came out with, you know, that . in '62 . W: '64. J: No, no, I'm talking about the Accommodations . Accommodations . I think that came out in '53, I believe. We were against all segregation of public . public . So, well, it just helped put pressure on the system. And they . like you say . you asked me whether they . could I see any Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 20 force . well, that was one of them . (loud noise) END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT . MINUTES. SIDE 2. W: Was there a groundswell of support for efforts toward civil rights or were most people ambivalent about it? J: I don't know. When you say 'support' what do you mean? Were they going out and voluntarily .? W: Were there people who were ready and willing to lend active support? I mean, either, you know, go on a picket line if it needed it, send money if you needed it, was there some sort of unified effort going on? Or was it just certain groups doing that? J: It didn't last as long here as it did in Alabama or Mississippi or some of those places, you know, they had to struggle for a long . they had a bunch of marches. We didn't have too much of that. W: How come, do you think? Why was the civil rights movement in Houston different than Mississippi or Alabama? J: I think when we really started . I think the civil rights were well on the way, you know, in other parts of the country. And with all the TV . I don't know how long . how long demonstrations lasted around here. It was a few demonstrations. I remember they demonstrated in theaters downtown one time. When they put all these students in jail Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 21 one time, they had a bunch of them in jail, I don't know where they got them from. W: Why do you think the movement was later . happened later here than in other parts of the country? J: Well, I guess people . the pressure wasn't as bad here in Houston, I don't think like it was everywhere else. You know, like, we could vote, we could run for office. It was a little bad, because I remember once, we had a lawyer . a lawyer to go down to the county courthouse for a trial one time. The judge talked to him like he had a tail. They had one try to integrate the county . the cafeteria . and I think he had to fight somebody. And during this time I was telling you they put all these kids in jail . they had a police . a police . they had a cafeteria in the police station . city police station . and they wouldn't let the blacks . public . go to the cafeteria because they said it was for the police. Well, they'd never had too many blacks on the police force at the time, so . personnel . police officers . police department . so during this time I was down there waiting for these guys to get out of jail they had a . some kind of carnival over in the parking lot of the police station over there . all these people were coming and going to the cafeteria . going into the cafeteria, getting food and eating. Just public people now, but they were all white. So I said, well, this thing is supposed to be for personnel only, you know, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 22 (laughter) I threw the door open and flashed my camera in there and took a picture. (laughter) I don't even know where that picture is . I've got that picture here. And so the man who owned the cafeteria he got excited and came out there . "Who took that picture? Who took that picture?" I didn't say nothing. I laid my camera down . I put the camera where he couldn't see it. I was using a big old 4 by 5, you know, those big old 4 by 5 cameras. But he really got excited over that, because I guess he knew what controversy would . And when I did that . boy, he went in there and he fixed steakburgers for all them kids . he came out with a tray with . they were good too. Tray . not hamburgers, steakburgers. And they all feasted on that. They were really nice, they were really good. Good hamburgers too. W: For the black kids? J: Yeah. The moment they got out of jail, he served them all these steak sandwiches. W: He didn't want any trouble? J: I imagine so. That's the only thing I can figure out. W: Was there a problem with police brutality here? J: Oh, my goodness, yes. I was involved with one one time. In fact, they treated me rough on two or three occasions. I went to the police station one time to . oh, what I was going to do . well, I got into a problem with a . on a . his sister told me to go down there to take some pictures of Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 23 him . he was having a birthday party and she lived next door. So I went to take some pictures, so I asked him about getting paid, so he said, "I didn't hire you." I said, "Well, who is Miss So and So?" "That's my sister, she lives next door." So I went back there and told her . said, "Your brother is not going to pay for these pictures, so I came up here to collect my money." She said, "You go back there and tell him I said for him to pay you." So I went back over there and, boy, he was about half drunk, I guess, and he got angry and he told me, "Get out of this place. Don't come in here telling me ." I said, ". pay ." " . get out of here . bother me." And I think I went back to her and told her and she sent me back to him. Well, by that time he was furious, just like the policemen do you, he grabbed me by the shirt, tore my shirt off me . W: Was this a black guy? J: Yeah. And I ran out of the place. And when I ran out the place, I ran over his mother, his mother was in the doorway, I didn't look for nobody . go around nobody . I just ran . and she was standing . I knocked her down . I heard him saying, "You knocked my mother down." I ran out to my car. When I jumped in my car and got it started he was looking for some bricks to throw at me, you know, in the drive . parking lot and that's the worst incidence I ever had, you know, with a customer. So I went down to the police station, said I'm Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 24 going to file charges on this guy. So I went down there and got on the elevator, . "Boy, remove your hat. Remove your hat. Don't get on this elevator with a hat on." So I just took my hat off. So I went up there to file a complaint. And they make you feel like you shouldn't be up there worrying them anyhow about a little complaint like that. So they took my complaint and this guy was supposed to be one of those . everybody knew him because he was supposed to be a deputy or somebody . W: Oh, he was a cop? J: Well, one of them 'dollar a year men' they call them, just a deputy. If they need them I guess they can . I don't know what it was all about . so they call them 'dollar a year man' . they get paid a dollar so they're given the right to be on the force, I guess. (laughter) So he was probably well-known down there, I didn't hear no more of that. So . in fact, when I say deputy, he was in the sheriff's department, because this was the city police department. Anyway, the next incident I got . I was at . I went to Earl Grant . you heard about him? . a singer . a famous singer at that time, I think he's dead now. He had a concert out at a place out on North Main. I think it was a Mexican joint . but that's where the dance was and when we came . when the dance turned out somebody had got shot in the parking lot so I asked the officer . said, "Well, can I go out here and make a news shot for ." At that time I had . I was a stringer for Ebony Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 25 Magazine . and he said, "I said, move on, move on." He didn't even answer my question. He didn't even look at my presscard. So they had a sargeant standing upside of the building (laughter) I asked the sargeant, I said, "Sargeant, I want to know if I can get permission to make a news shot out here?" "You have to ask that policeman there. He's in charge." Went back to him, I said, "The sargeant told me to ask you." "I told you to move on, boy, move on." That's all I got out of him. By that time some detective came out of there, and everybody was . Captain So and So . Captain So and So . so I asked him about it . he said, "Well, you have to ask the people in charge." So I went up there and I said, "Officer, I'm still trying to get permission. . if I get permission and you keep running me away." "I said move on. I'm going to have you arrested." He grabbed me, told somebody to put me in his car. I said, "I have some friends with me that might ." and they were riding with me so I had to . I think they snuck me off so fast I didn't get a chance because he wasn't around, I didn't get a chance to give him the key to my car, so he had to hustle a ride home some other way, I don't know how he got home. So after I sat in his car for about half an hour, he had somebody take me to the police station. I had to post my bond . W: What did they charge you with? J: What did they charge me with? Failed to move on. That's Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 26 what it was . failed to move on. So they put me in the jail, put me in jail, that's what it was. I stayed down there about an hour. Then they called me back. Told me I had a $10 bond to pay. So I paid my $10 bond, they had all my money anyhow. They had everything I owned . my pockets, you know. So they let me out. You know, on my one phone call I called my buddy, he was at home then, I said, "Look," I said, "can you come down here and get me?" I said, "I'm going to have to call you back when they let me out." I said, "They're fixing to lock me up now." He said okay. So when I got out I called him, he came and got me. Then I had to go to my car . anyway . so the HOUSTON PRESS was the newspaper . was the evening paper here at that time, and they picked up the news, they ran a story in the paper, . W: About you being arrested? J: Yeah. Well, no, no. That's when I went to the city council to complain about it. I called it unnecessary arrest, you know. And that's when the Press got a hold to it. W: What happened? J: Um? W: What happened? J: Nothing. They'd take it under advisement. That's all they'd tell you. They'd take it under advisement. But they won't investigate anything like that unless . follow ., I guess. So when the trial date come, I went down there and Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 27 the policeman didn't show up. He just . a lot of . they were harass . most of it . a lot of it was harassment. And I got my bond money back. But it creates a problem on you . your time and everything else involved with that . going to the police station. Anyway, in about . I think it was about a month or two later, the Press called me and asked me had I got any results from my hearing. I said, "No, I ain't heard nothing." Then they wrote another little piece in the paper about police brutality. Because I asked one of them, I said, "What . (inaudible) ." (laughter) He told me something, I don't know what he told me. (laughter) He said, "They'd got some bad publicity, I know that." That's what he told me. But anyway, now that was during the time . yeah, we had some . we got some . we . Then we got a new mayor, Hoffheinz. You heard about Hoffheinz?, he's the one that put up the dome stadium, Judge Hoffheinz. Was our police chief at that time, and I had a presscard from him, police reporter, they wouldn't even honor that. I went somewhere . they don't even look at your credentials . you know . try to show them your credentials is just like . I don't know . they just don't honor nothing from a black guy. I took some pictures of a customer of mine; this lady called me, a policeman had beat up her husband . right before Christmas, Christmas eve night. He was a truck driver . and they claim he was . he was peddling dope, I don't know . one of these Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 28 long distance truck drivers, drives these 18 wheelers, and she said they were waiting on him to come home that night. They came to her house, sit down there, cut her Christmas cake, her a black . white person, a policeman and a white ., they were together. And ate up her fruit, . they got a call to go to 4th Ward, to participate in some kind of affair they had over there, so I think the black policeman went over there and he came back and he started talking about . the one is just as bad as the other, talking about how . how they had to subdue some nigger over there and so and so . talk with the white guy . W: That was her husband? J: No, this was his partner, the white policeman . W: No, the man that had to be subdued. J: Oh, no, that's where he went . to 4th Ward, which is a black neighborhood across town, I mean, he was way over there, I mean, that was a long way from where he was. Then the husband came home and they went out there with a tire jack or something, and he didn't get out of the truck, and the pulled him out of the car and started beating on him. And so he ran into the house and got up under the bed. They still got him and beat him up. And she said, "I know my husband . my husband don't do no dope or nothing like that, so and so ." So she had me go take some pictures of him, the room how it was tore up, that room was just tore up, you know, and all those bruises Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 29 on his head. And they called me to court one time. All they wanted me there for was to prove that I took the pictures. That I wasn't . don't seem like them pictures mean anything . 'cause I sit there and listened at the trial for a while and their lawyer, I don't know whether he was trying to . I guess he . I don't know what . the pictures . I guess they showed the pictures of what the policeman had done to the man . but after that it didn't seem to bear any evidence on the complaint. Just whatever he was charged with . now they might have had some legitimate reason, I don't know, I'm not sure. The wife, the way she talked, she said, ". He just didn't do nothing like this." I don't know of any other incident. I can't think of any right now. W: I was telling you that I was trying to understand how the civil rights movement has affected our lives today. And housing is one thing that I'm interested in. Was there a change in where people lived after the civil rights movement here in Houston? J: Yeah. After the . what law was that? . you know, they passed a pack of them . a law where the real estate people couldn't refuse to sell you . W: Uh-huh. J: . whatever they called that now . yeah, people started moving over here in Riverside. W: The blacks?Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 30 J: Across the bayou, yeah, and the first . moved over there was named Cecil. And Cecil said that when they were moving in, they moved in at night. And the people in the neighborhood . the people in the neighborhood thought he was probably was a hired hand (laughter) helping . helping, you know, somebody . I don't know. I guess the people didn't realize the people had sold their home . so after they got situated they found out a black family had moved in, they bombed his house. W: What was his last name? J: I think his last name was Cecil. W: Oh, his last name was Cecil. J: What was his first name? Jack, I think Jack Cecil, I'm not sure. W: And when was this? J: I don't know. This had to be somewhere around the '50s . 4 . between '54 . no, not that early. I'm trying to think where I was living at that time. I'm not sure the year; I don't even know where I was living then. Between '54 and '61 I stayed at Sunnyside. It had to be somewhere in that area because I moved out here in '61. So it had to be in the '50s. W: Did it make the newspapers? I mean, was it well-known? J: Oh, yeah. W: Well-known? J: Oh, yeah, everybody knew about that. It made headlines And they finally got it resolved. They didn't move.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 31 W: What happened? Did they catch the people who had done it? J: Oh, yeah. They knew who done it. I think that . well, what had happened . they'd hired somebody . some tramp or somebody. To set the bomb off. They charged him with something and he served a little time or something like that. But the people who were behind it stayed clear . They didn't get affected at all. (laughter) W: Was that an isolated case or did that happen regularly? Intimidating blacks who are trying to move into white neighborhoods. J: You said isolated, what do you mean my that? W: I mean, did that only happen once or did it happen other times in other neighborhoods? J: It happened . somebody . the second . the second person that tried it . moved in here . they got intimidated too. Can't remember who they were. And then when . after the blacks started being able to move where they wanted and they started infiltrating these white neighborhoods, then the white flight started. White folks . just like out here . all these people just moved out. When I moved over here, we still had white neighbors, had white neighbors back here, they gave me a "welcome to the neighborhood" party, you know. Surprised me. Had a white neighbor across the street. There was two of them, this house and that fellow over there, was Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 32 white. And they were all up and down this street, they were . a lot of them were still in here. Have you seen that movie about . I got a tape of it on . 'This Is My House' . 'I'm Not Going To Move' . or something like that. For this neighborhood they had put out a tape . it came out on the public television channel, that's where I got it from, I copied off of that. W: When did they do that? J: That was after I moved here. Because a guy came by and interviewed me. W: And you have a copy of it? J: Yeah. W: Oh, I'd love to see it. J: Yeah. It's about 2 hours long. W: Uh-huh. J: Yeah, that'd be nice for you to see. W: When did you move to this neighborhood? J: In '68. W: And that's when this tape was made .? J: Somewhere in between . W: . J: Yeah, somewhere around '68. Yeah, I imagine in '68 because I moved here in March and so . W: Did that happen all over the city that, I guess ., you're middle-class or upwardly mobile . did a lot of middle-class Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 33 blacks move out of the formerly all black neighborhoods and into white ones? J: Yeah. That happened all over. What I gather . they, you know, when they built this neighborhood this was all Jews . Jews out here. And they wouldn't let the Jews move into places like Riveroaks, so they're going to build their own Riveroaks. They have some pretty nice houses in this area. That's how this started. What this started all about. When I was a little boy we used to come through here, we'd be scared, you know. They'd catch you . you didn't walk these neighborhoods at night, you know. But we used to come here . we used to come here and go swimming when I was a boy about 8 or 9 years old. And it was a lot of shrubbery, a lot of trees . they didn't have the cemented . like they've got it now . a bunch of trees and we used to go in our birthday suit (laughter). Go swimming out there in that hole they called it; we had a certain place that was kind of deep and sometime the policeman would run you out . run you away. And we'd just take that chance, you know. Because, you know, we didn't have nowhere to go swimming. Pitiful. We didn't realize that was sewer water and everything else. And I had went to the YMCA and learned how to swim, out at camp, we used to go every summer, and I just wanted to swim, just to swim some more, you know. Anyway, the . they just started moving . they just starting going . just like this movie . you'd swear there Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 34 were still going to be white people out here . they're moving back now . they're coming back. W: That's interesting. Why are they? J: Well, it's convenient. Right in town. I guess they moved out in these suburb areas and the gas price . the gas went up . and that killed their pockets, you know. W: The former owners or other people are moving into this neighborhood? Other . J: No, no, I don't think it's the former . no, these people that were living here they probably built . went out somewhere and this guy who I bought this house from he's in the oil business and I'm sure he bought him a mansion somewhere else or built one, you know. (laughter) W: But white people are starting to move into this neighborhood now? J: Yeah, uh-huh. We've got some Chinese right there on that corner. Just moved in about 3 months ago. W: Do you think that's a good thing that, you know, after civil rights you could now legally move into a neighborhood like this? J: Do I think it's a good thing? W: Uh-huh. J: I don't see anything wrong with it. W: Was there any . I don't know how to ask this . was there any resentment from, like people in your old neighborhood, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 35 when you moved out? J: Oh. No. I don't guess they knew where you were going, you know. (laughter) In fact, see, when I . before I moved here I was right across the bayou there. In fact, I moved in the house . the guy used to have a tailor's downtown, I used to buy my suits from . Irvin Tailors. I bought the house that he was living in. When I moved over on Grantwood, which is Grantwood, right across from Southland , about 3 blocks from here. Well, he had a house over there with three apartments, ., because I said, "Well, I could take this and . the apartments in the back will pay for my note. And I'll be note-free." So . and I rented the house that I moved out of and that paid for itself. Then what I didn't like . my family . my kid . baby son . and I didn't like them being in the area, because, you know, people . these three apartments are right behind my house and you don't know the kind of characters can get back there sometimes. And there was a problem at that time, you know. I had a pimp back there one time, he brought a woman back there one time, and beat her up, and almost killed her. I thought he was going to kill the woman. And this kind of environment, so I said I was going find somewhere to go, so that gave me a down payment on another home. So I came over here. My wife came over here one day, said, "I want to show you a house over here." And that's how I got from over there. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 36 W: Did . J: But they couldn't resent me because blacks had already migrated to that place then. They had already surrounded them . when I came over here there were still a lot of white people. Because there wasn't too many across the bayous, see? And I looked at some places further down, but those were too much for my pocketbook, you know. Some beautiful places. But people put signs out saying . "This is my home, we're not going to sell." The real estate people were really the ones they were mad at, because they were the ones making a killing. And forcing these people to sell their homes, telling them lies . the last one to move in and you all better . W: And probably everybody is going to move out. J: Yeah. And you'd better sell when you can, and this, that, and the other. This house stayed empty about . I had a friend, a customer who was a real estate agent and she said this house . I tried to sell this house back in . back in '60 . I . '68 . she said it was around in '60, the last part of '67, this house stayed empty ever since. And it was . they had vandalized it, they had . looked horrible in here, they had all these . took the speakers out of the . took the speakers out and all these things just pulled down . they had them all hanging down and they tried to take the rug up in that room. They had an ice-maker and they took that out . oh, just . it was in bad shape, see, because we were Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 37 bickering about the price, he wanted to sell it to me for $45,000 when I first . first it went on sale for $65,000, and I guess they'd dropped it down to $45,000 when I . when they approached me with it. And they wanted to sell as-is. They didn't want to do nothing, they didn't even want to sell FHA. And I said FHA isn't going to approve this house like this, and you want $45,000. So I didn't go for that. So, the real estate lady said, "Well, make him an offer." I said I wouldn't give him $30,000 for it as-is. She said, "Well, I'll take it back to him, but I don't think he'll go for that." I said, "Well, that's about all . " (laughter) So she came back and said, "Will you take $32,500 for it?" (laughter) So I jumped at that. I said, "Sure." W: Did that . was that a problem for very long? I mean, when you moved into this neighborhood and you weren't worried about getting bombed or .? J: No, I wasn't. W: Because the blacks had already started coming in? J: Yeah. Because they had already . yeah, 'cause they was . they had . that part over there . across the bayou called Riverside, they'd just about took all of Riverside out. And then they started filtrating across the bayou, now that's when they got over here. Well, they . they always had more sale signs in the yards, when I'd started seeking. And I'd almost given up, I wasn't even thinking about this house, and Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2) 38 so . in fact, I tried to buy that lot, see. That house and this house wasn't built. There was just 2 acres of land out there. So I called . the man who owned this house owned that 2 acres. So I saw a sign up there one day and I called him and asked him, says, "What was the price of those acres . that land out there." He said he wanted $56,000 for it. But he wasn't going to sell part of it, he wanted to sell the whole 2 acres. And I said I can't handle no $56,000, you know. So I forgot about it. So my wife saw this house . we came over here and looked at it . finally . he was the same man owned that house . owned that property over there. Because he had . he was using a little bit more . END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT . MINUTES.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 1 THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Oral History Office SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series [Tape 2 of 2] INTERVIEW WITH: Benny Joseph, Photographer DATE: 16 December 1993 PLACE: Houston, Texas INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe W: .with my conversation with Benny Joseph on December 16, 1993. So it's not.I guess it would be fair to say that the Civil Rights movement in terms of housing was really a good thing, because it allowed you to come into a another.to a little better neighborhood, get a better house than.? J: Yeah. W: .than you would have been able to do otherwise? J: Sure. W: What about.you know, we started talking about businesses awhile ago. Tell me what happened to Black-owned businesses. J: Well, I think when Blacks got a chance to go to the nicer places to eat.most of our places were more or less .they weren't so fashionable. And then, I guess it was just like that old saying, you know: The White man's hamburgers was better than the Black one's; White man's ice is colder than the.[laughter] Black man's ice. So, well, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 2 actually it took the Black businesses. They couldn't survive competing with the. W: Was that true for other kinds of businesses in addition to restaurants? J: I'm sure it did. In fact, I had a.it hurt my little out-of-town business I had with the schools. When the Black high schools integrated to the White schools - in the little small towns quicker than they did in the big cities. And I lost all my little school business down there. I used to take the highway and go down to Wharton and Sweeney. W: You'd take like graduating classes and that kind of portraits? J: Yeah, uh-huh. W: And that hurt your business because Black schools were integrated into White and then the White schools didn't hire you? J: That's right. That's true. W: They would hire White photographers? J: Yeah. They wouldn't even consider you. You never could talk to the principal at all. You couldn't pass the secretary. She always had an excuse. W: Like what? J: Well, “He's not available,” or “We've got a contract with a photographer already, we're not changing.” This and J: that, You know, always. W: What about business districts here in the city? There Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 3 must have been, like, just whole streets that were Black-owned? Like, maybe, off of Wheeler, Downing. J: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You take Downing Street was.well, people like you have interviewed me quite a few times and they always wanted some scene pictures and I'd say, “All these parades I take, I always get close-up stuff of a truck or a float or something, and I don't have any sections of town. And so that's the reason I don't have any of the old buildings.” W: Did that.did that.those businesses pretty much go out. J: Oh, yeah. W: .after the civil rights? J: We had a drugstore on the east corner of Downing. [inaudible] on the next big intersections of McGowan - we had a drugstore down there. We had a big doctor's office a block from it, with a drugstore. We had a ice cream parlor .[inaudible] across from Emancipation Park. And all through there was some type of businesses. They're just not there no more. W: And was the.was the problem that Blacks took their business now to White.White-owned businesses? Or were there other things involved, do you think? J: You'd have to talk to a Social.Social person for that. I don't know what. W: You just know they went out of business.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 4 J: Yeah. They.it's evidently that.it's evidence that they.that, well, I guess it's like the theaters. They didn't survive, the Black theater,. when you can go downtown .[inaudible] theaters. And I know that's one reason why they couldn't survive, you know. 'Cause then they were small. You had to.we even had a theater downtown called The Majestic Theater. It didn't last, right downtown. I can imagine - I'm just thinking about it now - the type of people that could.the amount of people they could hold didn't suffice for the income they needed. Because at one time you didn't need that kind of income. You know, like I used to go to the show for a nickel when I was a kid, you know. A dime at the most. And you can't survive now, you know, even 10, 20 years ago on a price like that. And then if you can get people paying a certain price you'll have to charge twice as much with the.with maybe what anybody else paying on account of the amount of people they can hold. See? W: Uh-huh. Did you lose other kinds of businesses? Other than your school business? I mean did your Black clients now go to White photographers or White studios? J: Uh, when I was out there for the portrait business I J: didn't see that. I could feel it. I had quite a.the reason why I quit, I just got tired. You know, I just. school work, it just burns you out. That's the only way I could make money is doing, in a mass, school work. Then I Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 5 wasn't able to.I didn't make enough.in fact, I tried to do it by myself. I didn't have enough money. I wasn't getting enough money to hire a staff. I couldn't get paid. Take for instance now: I made most of my money in black and white pictures - there's a tremendous amount of profit in there. When the color came out, oh, I had to compete with the color people. Uh, I had considered at one time building a color lab, setting up a color lab, which I was ready to do until.then I had to move. In '68 I had to move off of TSU campus to another location I had bought. And what I said I'm.I got me a architect to draw me up some plans for this house I had bought. I never did put it into action because the school system came out and said, “We're going to have to bid on pictures.” They didn't start integrating and I run into problems. It looked like all the Black principals had a White secretary. [laughter] Really, that happened. And they were hiring White photographers. And so I used to tell them, I said, “Man, how come you've got a White secretary in here?” “Well,” they said, “We're going to have to integrate our staff.” This, that, and the other. And so I said, “Well, can't you direct some of the business, some of the J: ideas to work with the Black photographer? Hey, we can't get into the White schools.” You know, but I don't know, that's the way it went. It's a funny thing. W: Well, are you saying, then, that in your experience integration.it sounds like it pretty much put you out of Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 6 business. J: Oh, yeah. Sure. W: Because you lost all the school business as a result. J: Uh-huh. Well, I got out of it because they said we're going bid on it. Well, bids wasn't nothing but a proposal. And in doing color work, it cost me as much for me to get a color package picture as with a color photographer, with what the White labs were selling them for. You know, for instance, if I could get a color package for about $2.75, and the school, they were telling me that these packages should sell for so-and-so. There's no bid. Then they wanted to know how much kick-back they were going to give to the school. Man, I said, this is outrageous. When I worked for the school . I'd go in there and make a deal with the principal and the only thing he would get probably is a yearbook . picture for the yearbook. I would furnish him a picture for the yearbook. But I'd take all the students' pictures for the graduation purposes. And if any activity pictures were made they would pay me for it. But I couldn't make no money after what they were talking about. I tried J: it one year. I shot an elementary school - which I didn't fool with an elementary school at one at one time; I was only dealing with graduates. And I said, “Well, I'm going to try and see how this pans out. And the proposal they had, they wanted you to shoot all the personnel free and all that stuff. I'd have lost my.I didn't lose no Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 7 money 'cause.[inaudible], you know. But I didn't make no money - what I considered making money, you know. I broke even. So I left that alone. And I said, well, I could make a living off the community. You know, I just ain't going nowhere. And at one point I thought I was really going up, you know. I was going to put up me a color lab - I'm talking about when just dealing with color pictures; you're talking.talking about.[inaudible] I'd have to invest about seventy or eighty thousand dollars, you know. And then - already tired – [laughter] that looked like a lot of debt for me to get into. W: You had kids in school when the schools were integrated? J: Uh-huh. W: Tell me about that. J: Uh, no, they wasn't in school. W: They were already out? J: No, they were just starting. W: Oh. J: Because I sent my - three of my kids - to White schools. One of them got her scholarship out of it. W: Do you think integrating the schools was a good thing? Did your kids benefit from it? J: Well, we.I think so. Then they had a good a reputation of putting out good students. And they had a. I don't know, but I found out, once they integrated - you Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 8 know what I found out? They took all the Black - best Black teachers and sent them to White schools. And they put all them little kids coming out of college, they put them in the Black schools. And they just couldn't teach them; they couldn't get along. I mean they had no discipline in these schools. I used to go back and I'd ask the principal, I said, “Principal, [inaudible]. I tried to take pictures over there one day, and boy, it was just a commotion all day long. Kids were out of classes. And so I said, “Milton, what.you can't control these kids over here?” He said. [inaudible]. He said, “These White teachers can't control them. They don't listen to them. And the kids don't. just.just disobedient.” He says, “It's pitiful.” So I experienced that in the school system. So. W: What about the education that your kids got? J: Oh, they got a good education, I think, 'cause I never had no problem with my children. They were eager to learn; they studied. And I think.[Bailey? Name of school?] had a J: reputation. It seemed like to me they had.seemed like they had a system of training the students to study and learn, you know, that the other schools didn't do. W: Was it a predominately a White school or predominately a Black? J: Yeah. Yeah, one of the best White schools in town. Of course it was in Bellaire, Texas, which is a little inter-city of itself over here . but it was under a independent Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 9 school district. W: Was there busing? J: Um? W: Were your kids bused into it or you lived in that? J: No . we drove them over to school every day. We pooled . you know . had to pool . there were several students around here that were going and we'd pick them up and take them. W: So you essentially bussed your kids into a . like an all-White neighborhood? J: Uh-huh. Yeah. W: You know you were saying about taking pictures of different social clubs at night and . I was curious about . it seems like these days we still . we live pretty segregated lives. I mean . you know . it seems like most of our clubs are either all Black or all White . most of our friends are like that . so it seems like civil rights hasn't changed that . the civil rights movement. J: Uh-huh. No. W: Do you think that's true? J: No. It hasn't. W: Do you think that's good? Or bad? Or? J: I don't think it's bad, because I think you're more comfortable with your type . especially for social reasons. The onlyest thing, being with a segregated society is when we had the Jim Crow Laws. That was devastating . Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 10 you know. They said . you can't do this . you can't that . you can't use this fountain . you can't use this bathroom. That's the onlyest thing I was against. Other than that, we could have stayed the same . you know. But . I mean . not the same . but I mean we could have those type of freedoms without integrating, you know. W: Uh-huh. Do you think . did you or people you knew, think about what it was going to mean to integrate? I mean did you have any kind of sense of the changes that would come in your life? J: No, I don't believe so. I can't remember me having any . how it was going to affect my life. I didn't think . I just don't remember what we talked about. I'm sure we knew that if they integrate that we were going to lose business, like cafeterias and cafes and stuff like that, and beer joints and . W: So you think you were aware of that or Blacks were aware of .? J: I believe so. W: And they were . J: I believe so. W: And it was worth it, to give that up to gain integration? J: Well, if you consider that something . I don't know. I guess it is. The only thing about it it's just hard on the entrepreneurs . you know . in that type of business.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 11 W: What about the kinds of jobs that were open to Blacks? I mean . when you were struggling to make it . you know . working in the VA Hosp
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