| Summary: | FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL INTERVIEW WITH:Art Grasso PLACE : Oral History office , ITC DATE: August 7 , 1982 INTERVIEWER: ESther MacMillan M: ARt Grasso is listed in the program as : Boots, Repair ~ Manufacturing Techniques. This is part of a small project dealing with early shoe maki ng and boot making. I want to ask first about the history of this company be cause it isn't Gras s o, the historic name is Rilling . Right? G: Urn huh. Right. M: What relation was Mr . Ril ling to yOU? G: My great grandfather . M: He was your great grandfather ! Your wife tells me you aren't mak i ng boots anymore. G: We don ' t make anything . WE don 't do fittings or anything. We are a supplier of materials used in the repair and manufacture of boots, shoes, leather products, per se . M: Sell the l eather , too? G: Se ll the leather,too. Everything that's involved with someone making a pair of shoe~o r a pair of boots or making a saddl e or a l eather purse, anything that you want to make out of leather. We sell supplies for that. As far as getting into the manufacture of any of these items , we don ' t. Years ago, back at the turn of the century, the company did make some shoes but that's l ong since gone. Haven ' t don~that in many, many years. M: Why did you stop making shoes? You weren't around . G: No , I wasn't around . ~. Grasso M: Tell me the date when your great grandfather began this business. G: THey came over from Germany .• lid have to r esearch back .• I don't have it right on the tip of my tongue •• but they started the business on September 9, 18 68 . The business was orignally located on Commerce STreet. At that point in time the address was 107 West Commerce Street. Then it changed t o 109 West Commerce and the n they changed it again several years later ~ and got a different address . But the locati on ~ in the same building, from 1868 to 1972. M: I can remember going b~ it. WHat was it next to? G: Walker Furniture Company was on the corner, then there was Hammond Jewelry was right next door to it. M: Is that the south side of the street? G: The north side o f the street. It would be catycorner across the street from SchiloAs Delicatessen' 11 : WAs it next to the coin man? G: The coin man was up on the corner. Wa lker Furniture was on one corner, the coin man was on the other corner, next to the river and Rilling was right in the middle. M:I can remember walking by there. When did you move to Navarro? G: 1972. That was river property and there was development with Hemisfair '68 and all. The building b e longed to my uncle; that was his. So he decided they would utilize the building in a different manner and they relocated the bus-iness. 11 : Doesn 't really matter in your business does it? Grasso 3 • G: No. Not really. M: ARe you wholesale or retail? G: Wholesale. M: You have at the Festival this year a wonderful display , of old time tools and a picture of old time shoes, womens shoe, merts shoes, all kinds of shoes and boots. One of t he 0- displays you have is calledAheel shave . . Could you talk about that a little bit? G: Basically some of the tools that were used, I'd say 50 to 60 years ago . I'll use the word pre-machine .• Of course everything had to be drawn by hand or nailed by hand or whatever. There is a tool out there, it' s a knife t ool, it has a knife blade in it it's call e~ hee l shave. A heel shave was used after you nailed the heels on to the side of the boot and the heel s have was used to shape tha t heel to the desire o/whatever that parti cular boot make r or shoe maker wanted at that point. Basically a sh~ping tool. M: Sort of a slanting deal. G: ,'1ell , the knive s vary. From not t <XImuch of an angle to a very sharp angle. The knives have various shapes to them and these various shapes, when they're put onto the heel shaves will make a different design or different pattern a nd actually perform a d ifferent function. Whatever the praticular bootmaker or shoemaker wants to do on that par-ticular heel . But ultimately the over-all design of the heel shape, basically a shaping tool, that is used in the final procedures in the manufacture of a boot or shoe to shape it down and get it down to its final configuration . Grasso 4 . M: In the early days, I'm thinking of cowboy boots particularl y , wi t h quite a substanti a l hee l on them . they didn 't use rubber or composition did they? G: It was all l eather . Everything was l eather then , just like it i5 now . There are some dif ferences now but a quality boot or a quality shoe is still going to use l eather. M: All t he way through . St acked? G: It' s stacked. What they do i s t ake layers of i t and glue it together with contact cement and r einforced with nails . There 's various specialized nai l s that are a lso used . There ' s a hob nail and a t ack , clenching nail . various nai ls t hat have specific purposes . mainly in the hee l a r ea . to do a spec i f ic thing i n order t o attach that heel to the shoe . M: The layers are cemented and t hen . G: They ' re cemented and then r einforced with na ils. M: You have threehammers . And the one that really tickled me}it was such a work of art/ i s the French hammer. I t' s the most beautifu l shape. G: French hammer is your basic t ool . lt's been used in the manufac ture o f boots and shoes for I don't know how many years. I t's j ust an old standardized tool. And it' s called the French hammer. It has a specific function. It ' s an exacting hammer mainly used for t he nails I was just describing previ o usly. It i s also used)because of its configuration and design , when wor king with glue the head can be t urned over and do some work on the side to,agai~he l ping the shoemaker getting t he shoe done with as few tools as possib l e. As many functions with one tool as you can get. Grasso 5 . M: There was o ne tha t was doing something about buttons or something and also had a pounder t hing attached to it. G:That' s your pincher your lasting pincher . And that is used in the stre tching of your boot vamp material over t he c rimping boa rd . You hold it over there and you ho l d i t with th~ther hand and hit a nai l in it right away. You don 't have to move a r ound and lose your stretch t hat you' ve got on your vamp at that point . M: That cri mping board is a f l a t p i ece of wood in a cert ain pattern. G: Yes, it's f l at to an extent it is t apered . M: The board itself is f l at . G: The board is basically f l at . I t ' s got some tapered edges on it~impart a specific curl into this area . And again it's in there like that when the boot maker or shoe maker puts that parti cular vamp over t he last t hat he ' s going t o nail i t to that it reasonably conforms to that last and it's easier to put o n t here and crimp in and get it nailed down ont o t he l ast . M: I want t o go back to t hat h ammer ag~n. I want to describe it on the tape . It ' s so beautiful. The hammer part kind of flanges out like a be l l , almost. It's just a beautiful thing. G: It 's des igned . • it ' s a shoiFhandled hammer. From a functionality standpo i nt( I guess is the word t o use) that it gives the shoe-make r the amount of force and the leverage that he needs. The shoe-maker uses the hammer quit e extensively.There.s a lot of nai l work as far as the heels, etc .• Whenever they're g luing ma~Yia l s on the shoe, it' s a l ways glued on there and i t' s 6. Grasso G:always tapped on with the hammer .So they use it as a shorthand l ed thing. It comes down and strikes at ~pe rpend icul a r surface. M: Gets a good crack at it. G: Uh huh. It wouldn ' t be any good for nailing a nail into the wall; it ' s a shoemaker ' s tool and specifically designed for that and like I said, over hundreds o f years of use that's what they came up with and that's what they like to use.They won ' t use a standard claw hammer or a ball peen hammer that you find at your local hardware stores. M: Right below that French hammer, you have displayed a hammer that looks like a ball peen on the bottom but the top isn't at all like that. G: That ' s a crispen hammer .And again it has a specific purpose. Some shoemakers prefer a crispen hammer to a French hammer S~me prefer a French hammer to a crispen hammer; some use one for one function and the other for another function. And again it's individual preference .• what they use; what they want to use. Again, both tools are specifically used in the boot and shoe making industry. Unique tool to this industry. You wom't find it in your hardware stores. M: Actually , a shoe-maker is an artist, i sn't he? G: Definitely . That ' s what I've been telling people here. They ask me, "Do you make boots? Do you do this?" And the answer is, "NO , I do not." A shoe-maker or a boot maker is a craftsman by definition. And I 'm not! There's some thatcpn; most can ' t . A good boot maker, that real ly produces a fine boot, particular- Grasso G: ly by hand/is at a p remium and is hard to find. M: That ' s one reason why I wanted to get you on tape. More and more we 're getting everything made by machine. One of the things on your board I didn't know abou t were bristles. You said you use those for sewing. What kind of bris tles? 7 • G: There 's t wo types of bristles. There's what they call a hog bristle and i s in fact a hog bristle from the animal and there's a wire bristl e . Now the choice between-the bristle is used to thread, or sew the thread(I guess would be a better choice of words ) into the boot. Whether you're going t o sew the welting onto the boot or hand make . go all the way around on your stitching on this part out here. This sews the full sole to the we lting. If they 're going to do it by hand and go all t he way with it, they go either with a wire bristle or a hog bristle •. It is considered a quality boot and more prestigous, hand made boot will be sewn with a hog bristle. That's still the best. They've used hog bristles for hundreds of years. ~om e of your boot makers or sho~makers will use a wire bristle. Again it's just used to thread thread . It's a connotation:" I made that boot with hog bristle; or I made that boot with a wire bristle." It's a little more prestigious job to use hog bristle. But again, it is a threading device only. M: Along with those, you have some awls . YOu said they punched the sole with the aw l and then the bristle goes in. G: With a sewing awl, you make the smallest sewing hole you 8 . Grasso G: can,A boot maker or shoe-maker knows exactly the size that he wants to make; he's done it so many times . You take the awl and you poke the hole in there and you make the hole the size you want . Then you take the thread and the thread is a combination of . it's a very small diameter o f thread . and you take approximate ly 10 or 12 loops on this thread and you make a span of about 4 feet . M: What do you mean . . 1D or 12? G: You take l D pieces of thread . M: Oh, to make it strong like we do double thread. G: Correct . Then you take a wax and you wax that thread real good and it's all waxed and it becomes basica l ly one thread , so to speak. And then this thread i s what is hooked through . I mean wrapped around the hog bristle and hooked through the wire bristle and then you ' re ready to s ew. So you take your hole and you run your thre ad through there and you get it started and you continue on down. In about 1/8 inch, maYbep/ 16 inch , depending, and you keep sewing 'til you get the entire thing sewed up. M: Really strong , i s n ' t it. G: very strong. M: It has to go through •. the boots, have to go through mud and water , dry and hot . G: It seals 'em in there; that ' s why you use the wax. Of course that seals the hole off after it ' s all •. this particular wax will take and seal that hole and make that hole . The boot maker or shoe-maker will take that sewing awl and he 'll make the diameter of the ho l e , like I said , Grasso 9 • G:he knows exactly how thick he wants it. He makes it almost as thick as the thread . He knows how thick that's going to be. So basically you're pul ling it into a very tight hole at that point. And the wax that's on that thread seals that hole. M: Wh~s he got in his hand when he's pulling this thread through? G:Nothing. M: He's just got the thread in his hand? G:Uh huh . M: The sewing awl has an eye i n it? G: No. The sewing awl is just a point . M: You've got a ho l e here and you 've got your waxed thread. Does it go down by itself in the hole? G: No, that's what the wire bristle is for. You thread the thread into the l oop of the wire bristle. And the wire bristle is what you stick through there. M: And that pulls it through. Now I get it. G:The bristle kind of acts like a needle. M: Kind of like a crochet needle. G: Similar. But more like a needle, I suppose. You've got a hole and you've got your thread. END OF TAPE I, Side 1,15 minutes TAPE I, Side 2 M: One of the things that you've got on display that fascinated me and you showed me where they were used . . those little fine shaved wooden pegs.Now they went into the sole; underneath 10. Grasso M: the sole? G:The wooden peg goes onto the outside of the boot. It's nailed in from the outside. At one point, it attaches and kind of curves the full sole around the shank of the boot and attaches it back into the insole . Of course what the pegs do,~ement is involved there,too. You coat the surfaces with some cement .Again you hit the leather with the hammer and you knock the leather down on there and then you take what's called a pegging awl . there's a sewing awl and a awl pegging awl. The pegging~ only has apoint on it about an inch long. You're only doing one purpose with the pegging awl. With the pegging awl, you take the awl and stick it into the full SOl~of the leather and you can drive a hole into and it goes all the way into the inside of the boot. At that point you take your wooden peg, drive the wooden peg down in that hole and fill that hole with that wooden peg. And you do that all along the instep; along the shank portion of the boot on each side. M: On each side? The sample that yo~ve got up there on the board shows it through on the in~e oH the boot. G: It ~oes through on the inside of the boot. You've got a little peg that's about 5/8 of an inch long. M: Those look like they're hand whittled. Are they? G: I don't know how they're made. I'm sure they're like a tooth pick. M: Are you still selling them? G: Oh, yeah. Grasso 11. G: Oh you have to. This boot is about 3 months old and you can s ee the pegs on either s i de in it. That's an integral part o f the boot. M: Have you any idea why they went to wood? G: No . I've still got a l ot of studying to do on it myself. A boot maker cou l d probably t el llou I don't know. We supply wood pegs because the boot maker utilizes the pegs in the manuf acture of h i s boots . We have a firm that makes t he wood p egs for us get the pegs from them. I'm sure the process is similar to the tooth pick. M: It looks like they ' rehand done. G: They would be done by machine. 1square peg about 1/8 inch square and 5/8 inch l ong . And you d rive them i nto the boot and t hat seals. It he l ps to hold, or he lps to hold, that particular part of t he sole j t he fu ll sale to the insole . You drive ' em in you sand ' em of f on t he outs ide , flush, and t hen there's a t ool th~t you stick down on the inside of the boot and you sand ' em off on the inside . M: So they 're smooth. I'm thinki ng about t he long-lasting qualities . The boot gets s uch tough wear I woul d t hink the wood would rot out. Maybe it 's s o confined in the leather, i t doesn ' t. G: It might. I suppose , however , that there are other materials that would we ar out befo~e t hat. You wear a boot and utilize it , you ' re u ltimat e ly goi ng to wear your outside sole off . And t hen you have i t replaced whic h any shoe - maker wi ll do. You t ake it in and t hey remove a ll the stit-ching in here and take t he heel off and they t ake that outside sole off and here c ome your holes and your pegs. Grasso 12. ~ G:AndAthat point it's re-pegged. And put it all back on there. M: What kind of leather is that? G: This is caribou. M: It's kind of a greyish color; it's got a grain it it. It's interesting, isn't it? G: There's all kinds of exotic skins that people use. M: And the decoration is nice.lt's nice and kind of restrained. I don't like too much decoration. G: I take it easy on mine. M: Another thing that goes back to the old times is buttons. When they were making butt~n shoes, were they always for women? G: There were also button shoes for men,too. More predom-inate in the women styles. Again, I'm still researching that. Our company) having been around since 1868,was obviously into this era. I've still got some of these tools and materials. That's the reason I set up the display. I thought people would be interested in seeing it. M: It's fascinating. G: I have no commercial gains whatsoever; just showing people what went on.I'm learning myself. I've had people come up to me and tell me some things which I think is I great. But I would say the buttons were on ladies shoes. , Ive got one that I display; just to show people how it was with the hooks, the buttOning machines. I use the word, I guess, in quotations, because the machine back in those days compared to 1982 . their definition of a machine was something 13. Grasso G: wou l d be utilized by the hand or by t he foot. There is a buttoning machine that we have down there that is a hand-operated device. It's got a little slide tray on the top of it and you can put about 25 of these buttons in the top of it and they drop down o ne by one . So you could have a shoe there that you're going to re-button, put 10,12,15 buttons on and you could just go down with this "machine " and put your 10,12,15 buttons on. You're not continuously stopping and putting on another wire , thread, that took time . Somebody had to sit there and thread the machine but once the machine is done, t he n it went on. That's the multi one. I have some others that are j us t single buttons. These machines were also sold to you or me • . YOu could have one of these at home and when you broke a botton off your boot, you could buy the buttons in little boxes of 2 dozen , take 'em home and have this little the machine . You had A. wire and you broke a button, you could put your button back on there . M: They all had metal shanks? G: The buttons . I' ve broken some to see how they were built •. and they ' re all . it' s a meta l wire, it's a wire type device with just a little eye hook on the underneath of it. There were two different ways , that I've been able to r e - search so far .• some people liked to have the buttons loose to where it would flop on the shoe; and o ther,sliked to have it fixed. Real tight to the leather. We ' ve got a tool that's called a lock shank. And what this does . • is if you don't like the button flopping around 14. Grasso G: on your shoe, you can take this tool and mash it and i t takes the wire on that button and mashes it down to the '---" wire that's attaching it to the shoe and fixes it on there and you've got a fixed button. M: What were the buttons made of mostly? G: Wood. M: Wood? G: As far as I've been able to tell. The few I've seen. I think there's other materials involved, too.I've got some buttons out there that are an imitation .• that I've been told so far are the most expensive buttons that you could buy for an imitation pearl. And it really looks like pearls,too. It's a very pretty button. M: ProbablY evening shoes. G: Very flressy. M: I seem to have seen •.• everybody 's got old shoes . not everybody, but you go into little old fashioned stores in small towns, they have old timey shoes. It seems to me' I've seen some shoe buttons that were shiney like pottery. Did they ever make them of pottery? G: Yes. lhey made all kinds. As I said,I've got these that look like imitation pearls.Most of the ones that I have that we've saved; I say we because my father and my grandfather and my uncle were the ones that saved them.I've taken them out and I said,"i'omebody ought to see them.All this stuff." So I'm looking at it and learning on it as I display it, demonstrating. But the ones I've seen are basically all painted. It's painted and wood. Grasso G: I t seems to me to be wood. When we get through talking , I'm going to have to c heck . Break one open again . IS. M: They ' re p~inted . All right if i t' s a b l ack shoe , i t ' s black and if it ' s a brow~shoe , brown. Did t hey ever make other colored shoes? G: Yeah , I have some pink o nes out there I ' ve got white ones . White is p r edominate . Different shades of brown. Ther~s one or two shades of brown . Blacks , of course . There ' s red . I n this co l lection, f or whatever reason , whites were predominate . I 'm sure they made all colors . Another faction on shoes i s hooks . A lot of t he men ' s shoes used hooks. You could buy hooks , maybe just a plain o l d black hook . Do you know what I'm ta l king about? M: No. G: I shou l d have shown it to you. Some of the men ' s shoes . s hoes were very high , came above the ank l e . so from a convenience standpoint, they would have maybe the first 4,5 laces down here at the b ottom part of the shoe were eyelets . . so your l ace was fixed in there. Then when you got up to the top, it wo u l d be a hook l ike on your work boots. But these were very fancy hooks some were some we r e very plain . W~ve go t some down there that are rea l tiny hooks , about 1/8 inch wide . As compared to your workshoe boot s whi ch were 1/4 inch , 3/8 inch, heavy duty . These are very fine hooks. I have some down there that appear t o be . a~n pearl . I will use the term pearl i zed because they have some material coated on the top of them that gives 'em a very . . t hese happen t o be white . just a very attractive hook. And you hook your laces i nto them . So you have it so you could unhook ' em 16. Grasso G: real quick and t ake your shoes off.I've got a few of those that were saved, tool to show the different designs. M: Any particular history about shoe laces ? G: No . M: We r e they cotton or silk or . ? G: I have not researched that. I would imagine they were predominately cotton. Maybe some silk for very fine. But I would say probably cotton. M: Can you put a date on when your family quit _ making boots and just went to findings ? G: No, I can't. Not at this point. M: Your great grandfather certainly made boots. Your grandfather probably made boots. G: At t~at ~nt, however, I think that was it. M: Then your Dad . G: They were not i nvolved in any kind of shoe making. I know t hat goes back t o the early 30's. 'they probably quit- around 191 5 maybe 1910. Because t ha t fashion plate poster I have down there I estimate around 1900. I'm guessing. There are no dates on there. M: It's a wonderful poster. Do you get a lot of response? Dc people come by asking a lot of questions? G: I've had quite a bit of response to it.I've also had people wa lking off , saying,"It really is a nice display." That makes me feel good because my first year participating and only my second year, r ea lly, in this busine ss. We a l ways come to the Folklife Festival; I think it's really a unique experience. So we were out there last year and I Grasso 17 . G: said "Here we ' ve got the b usiness . I've got all these antiques. It fits into this back 40 situa tion here because eve rybody is showing things, I'm going to call and see if we can get i n or if the y'd be interested in having." M: They said yes right awa y . G: I didn't have problems. So I hope the Institute is satisfied with it. People that I've hear d seem to be r e asonably satisfied with it . I ' ve had some r ea l good comments come from some peop le.Some have really asked questions on it. Most come by and look. I 'm trying to show the new along with the old and the comparison and I've had a chance to do that on some things. I've got a tool that's used today and a tool that was used 75 years ago. Very little difference. M: I wonder why the Italians went into the shoe business . G: I wouldn't stem it back no~eceS SarilY to the Italians. M: I think about t he l~che s e s and your name is Italian. G: My name is Ita lian but it's s till German descent.All my ancestors are f rom southern Germany. The name . . some - where back i n history , 3, 400 years ago . I remember hearing this i n highschool •. there was an Italian movement f rom northern I -tal y i nto southern Germany. And there was quite a bit. I assume that this i s where the Italian .• M:Maybe somebody married a Grasso. G: An Italian Grasso moved into southern Germany. And over the years, even though t hey still h ad the Grasso name , went all German as fa r as t heir heritage , etc. I 'm talking about several hund r ed years ago.I'm just specu lating , but 18. Grasso G: everything came out from a German standpoint . I would say from the know- how and the expertise . A lot of the tools that were used were made in Germany , anyway . I would say where i t more stems f r om. I 'm not real sure . I have not r esearched it , I 'm ashamed to say . M: Did your great grandfather come direct to San Antonio? G: Db huh. M: He did. So did t he Luccheses come directly to San Antonio . G: I wonder why . M: By happenstance . They were headed (it was an enormous :\ t he U.S . family/and papa said , "You two are comi ng to . /\ "They were headed for New Orleans and on the ship they said ," Why don't you come to San An t onio? I t' s a great town; i ts booming it ' s a great p l ace to be . " G: Did Mr . Lucchese ever mention the name of Ri l ling? When you go back out there , you might me ntion it. Ri llings a nd the LUccheses d i d qui te a bit of business many years ago. END OF TAPE I , Side 2 , 15 minu tes . Grasso Note : HENRY RILLING, great g rand father, came to San Anton i o from in 1868· Ge rm any~ Estab lished a l eather and findings business and , as an adjunct, manufact ured boots and shoes. HENRY RILLING,JR.,had a sister Ella who married Adolph GRASSO , grandfather. He was founder of the retail merchant's as sociation. ROLAND GRASS6 , fathe r, was i n business abou t 15 years with Henry Jr. CLARENCE GRASSO, t ook ove r in 1950- SQ~ ART GRASSOA took over in 1981.
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