| Summary: | Oral History Interview with Mary Arvold, 1996-1997 Arvold, Mary, 1925- Oral history interview with Mary Arvold, 1996-1997 1 sound cassette (ca. 36 minutes) Collection number: Tape 213 Abstract Biography Transcript OVERVIEW Access: The collection is open under the rules and regulations of the Institute. Provenance: Donated by Fargo Heritage Society (Acc. 2570). Property rights: The Institute for Regional Studies owns the property rights to this collection. Copyrights: Copyrights to this collection is held by the Institute. Citation: Mary Arvold, Oral History Interview, 1996-1997, Institute for Regional Studies, NDSU, Fargo. ABSTRACT The following interview with Mary Arvold took place at her home, 1110 N. Broadway, Fargo, N.D. The interview was conducted on two separate dates: June 27, 1996 and April 4, 1997. Side A of the tape is the interview that took place in 1996 and Side B is the completion of the interview in 1997. Jerry Richardson was the interviewer in association with the Fargo Heritage Society. Side B, the second portion of the interview, is not of the best sound quality. There are parts where static completely suppresses the audio from the interview. The interview concerns Mary’s childhood, the city of Fargo’s past, and Mary’s father A.G. Arvold. A large portion of the interview is dedicated to A.G. Arvold, including things like the Little Country Theater, bringing celebrity musicians to the area, and a trip to Europe. Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 2 of 10 BIOGRAPHY Mary Arvold was born in Fargo, N.D. on January 9, 1925 to Alfred and Mildred Arvold. When she was only 5 years old, her father took the family along on a trip to Europe. A.G. Arvold was an emissary of the Agriculture Department and was to study rural life in Europe. He even met with the king of Norway. A.G. Arvold was an important figure in the Fargo area. Mary attended Horace Mann Grade School, Roosevelt Junior High School, and Fargo Central High School. Mary later attended North Dakota Agricultural College in Fargo, N.D. She studied Home Economics and worked in food management for almost 40 years. TRANSCRIPT Introduction: This interview transcript was donated by the Fargo Heritage Society along with the recorded interview. It is not known who developed the original transcript, perhaps done by the interviewer Jerry Richardson. Very little editing, other than formatting, has been done to this transcript version by the Institute staff. Beginning of transcript: Jerry Richardson: This is an oral history interview with Mary Arvold in Fargo, North Dakota, on June 27, 1996. Being done in conjunction with the Fargo Heritage Society. So I’m just going to ask Mary to talk a little bit about her childhood. Mary Arvold: I was born in the Monticello Apartments on North Broadway on January 9, 1925, and I moved with my family into the home that my parents built at 1110 Broadway in September of 1926. I went to Horace Mann Grade School, Roosevelt Junior High School, and Fargo Central High School. When we were young, we enjoyed playing in the yard, had a chuck wagon in the back yard, made snowmen, sat in the sprinkler in the summertime. I remember that, when you got a dime to go to a movie, that was quite a treat. And when they first started showing movies on Sunday afternoon, that was verboten for quite a while. Richardson: Who were some of your playmates in those days, and are some of them still around? Arvold: Not in this area. Not in this area. I mean I lived next door to the Deweys from the time I was two until I was out of college, and I played with them. One of them still lives in Fargo and I played with the (Tronnes?) girls. Margaret still lives across the street, but Margaret was a little bit beyond my vintage. Richardson: Talk a little bit about the Hancock house. Arvold: Well, the Hancock house was across the street from where I was born, and my parents lived in that apartment for 17 years. Mr. Hancock was an architect. It was a beautiful piece of architecture. I remember we used to walk by and we all talked about it and my mother used to talk about conversations she had with him. And I think I remember her saying she remembers he was out in the yard one day and he fell over on the ground and I guess that was the end. Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 3 of 10 Richardson: How about when your family came to Fargo? Let’s talk about that a little bit. Where your parents came from. Arvold: My father came to Fargo in 1907, and he came from Whitewater, Wisconsin. He started teaching in 1907 at the North Dakota Agricultural College. He had previously taught high school in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, which was where he met my mother. They were married in Eau Claire on June 16, 1909, and then came to Fargo. Richardson: He became quite a famous man in America. How did that all come about? Arvold: . . .high school teacher, then he came out here. . .he was always interested in theatre and the theatrical aspect of things. Originally, I think he taught history, but he was into the drama part of it and saw an opportunity at the agricultural college to bring culture to rural America, and was one of the pioneers in that field. Richardson: He became fairly well-known in New York and major theatrical circles. How did he manage that? Arvold: In the boondocks? Well, as I say, he wanted to bring . . . relief from the work ethic people had in this part of the country. He saw a great opportunity. It was a virgin field at that time. And he knew people from different areas of the country and became aligned with people in New York he could talk to and bring artists here that were world-renowned artists, which, at that point, had never been done in this area. Richardson: He created the Little Country Theatre. Arvold: He created the Little Country Theatre, which was the first theatre, I believe, in Fargo. No, no, no, there was . . .I can't think of the name of it. Richardson: And he got people doing plays in their barns and stuff all over. Arvold: Uh huh. He took them out into the rural areas, into the rural communities. He took some plays from here and would get the community involved in it. Then they would put on dramas. And they would put on pageants that kind of thing. He was one of the pioneers in bringing that type of activity to this part of the country. Richardson: I've seen pictures of some of those pageants. There were droves of people. . . Arvold: Some of them were done out here at El Zagal Park, the Shrine Park. He founded El Zagal Park, too. He asked them to buy that property. I mean it's not a park now. It's just a golf course, really. He'd put on pageants out there. Richardson: He was very big in Masonic… Arvold: He headed the Shrine nationally in 1944 and '45, and he went through every degree in the Masonic Order that there was to go through. He started that also in Eau Claire, where he joined his first Masonic organization. Richardson: I know that a lot of NDSU graduates revere him. What kind of a man was he as a father, was he wonderful or tyrannical, imperious man? Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 4 of 10 Arvold: No, no. He wasn't an imperious man. He had a wonderful sense of humor, and he was very giving, but he also was . . . I mean, you know where the line was and you didn't step over it. Let's put it that way. Richardson: I understanding he was very demanding of his students. . . Arvold: He was demanding of students, that they reach their potential, that they did all they could, but it was a little different when you were an offspring. Richardson: Was he less demanding of his offspring, or was he even more so? Arvold: No, he wasn't less demanding, but he didn't, ah . . . you could express yourself as you wanted to express yourself, but there were certain lines that you knew . . . you didn't cross over those lines. Richardson: Was your brother younger or older? Arvold: My brother was five years older than I am. He was born in 1920. I was born in 1925. We both went to NDAC, both graduated from there. Richardson: What was your major? Arvold: Home Ec. I worked in institutional food management for 37 years, in the East, and in Fargo. . . moved to New York in 1947. I came back in 1956 about 9 1/2 years. Richardson: When you think about this house back in the early days, were there cars. . .what was it like? Arvold: Well, there were cars, yes, but people didn't build homes with garages. My neighbors on the north, the Deweys, Mr. Dewey was a photographer in Fargo in the early days. He had a car, but they didn't have a garage. And we never owned a car. Never owned a car. And the two lots north of this house were vacant until 1950. . .it was after I left here . . . 1950. . .Oral Holm owned them, and the one time we had a garden in the back, there, and there used to be a big depression in the ground over there and we would say, "Let's go play in the hole over there." That was the big activity. There were trees all around. The lot was never built on. That was very unusual because everything else was built around here. Richardson: Now there were street cars on Broadway… Arvold: Streetcars? I don't remember on Broadway, but there were streetcars on Seventh Street. One night, back when I can recollect, there were streetcars on Seventh Street. I remember when they took them off, and I remember we used to take a streetcar at Christmastime. You could ride around some of their routes and look at the Christmas decorations. That was the big activity. Richardson: When did they stop having streetcars? Arvold: I can't give you the date. I can remember when they covered the tracks over there, with asphalt or whatever, and then they've since taken the tracks up. I can remember when we had an ice box. No refrigeration. My mother would put the card Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 5 of 10 in the window for the amount of ice to bring in. It was a horse-drawn cart. We'd go out and follow the cart and get the ice chips off the back. Richardson: Did you have indoor plumbing in the house? Arvold: Yes, yes, my father. . .that was a joke. He had a great sense of humor. Somebody would come in and he'd say, "Look what I did for her. I put in running water and I put plumbing in for (my mother)" And they'd say, "Yes, but you haven't done anything since." Richardson: Did people have servants in those days? Arvold: Well, people did, but we didn't. I can remember my mother doing all of the laundry on a washboard. Then we used to send the sheets to the Dixon Laundry. The Dixon Building is still down here on Broadway. Richardson: How was this house heated? Arvold: Well, originally coal, briquettes. Then it was converted to oil. Probably around the Second World War . . . Hot water heat in the radiators.There is no air. Richardson: What did people do in Fargo for entertainment in those days? Arvold: Play cards, and have little groups, study groups, my mother used to. . .I think it was primarily socialization done in the home, which, of course, is gone now, a great deal of it. Richardson: What about community gatherings, plays, etc.? Arvold: I can't think of the name of that. . .it was like an old opera house. . .it was down there and I can remember Otis Skinner and Maude Adams. . .people like that used to play down there. And I remember the theatre in the Masonic Temple. My father used to put on plays down there and I can remember when I was in a play, which, you know, took a lot of encouragement. Peter Pan. I can remember we did it out there (at the NDAC) and we did it at the Masonic Temple. I was Michael, and we were fitted with harnesses. In those days, that was a big project too. They came from Minneapolis with the harnesses so we could fly. That was a big operation in those days. Richardson: How was snow dealt with? Arvold: Before snow blowers? Well, I guess my father shoveled, but he wasn't too great on caretaking of the house. But I think I did my share of shoveling. I still do. Richardson: How did they take care of the streets, horses and plows? Arvold: Primarily, I guess. And the postal service used to have horse-drawn carts that would bring around, you know, big bulk mail and I can remember seeing those when I would come home from Horace Mann and you'd see the big horse-drawn cart with bulk mail on it. Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 6 of 10 Richardson: Where did you go to grade school? Arvold: I went to grade school at Horace Mann, which, I think it's still in operation over there. It was one of the first schools. One of the only old schools that's still operating as such, over on Third Street over here. And I went to Roosevelt Junior High, which is what it was then. If you lived on the west side of Broadway you went to junior high at Roosevelt, and if you lived on the east side of Broadway you went to junior high at Horace Mann. Richardson: And you went to Fargo Central High? Arvold: Fargo Central High was the only high school there was. And we used to walk. I'd meet my friends, Martha Blair; her father was the principal at Roosevelt. We'd meet up on 11th Avenue and 10th Street and walk to Fargo High. Richardson: That was a pretty good hike. Arvold: We didn't think it was too much. And we'd walk home at night and we'd go down Eighth Street, and the Dutch Maid was there then. We'd stop in the Dutch Maid and when I went to college we always walked out there and when it was 20-below, we'd stop in at a little . . .the place is still there, an apartment house, in the vestibule there if we got too cold. Richardson: How was school different than it is now, what people studied, how they behaved, or anything like that? Arvold: Well, I think we had more respect for authority from that I can gather now . . . from my friends' children. But I never had any children, so I'm not quite in it, but I think we felt that they were more revered. The educators were revered, I mean they were shaping your life, and we had respect for them. Much different than it is now. Now it's free and open. I noticed that, when I was working, people don't, you know, don't have any respect. Richardson: What are some of your fondest memories of growing up? Things that were really fun. Arvold: I've always been a great doll fancier. When we played dolls, it was like real life. I mean, when we got up in the morning, we cleaned and dressed them. They had lunch when we had lunch. When we had dinner, it wasn't just an interim activity. I'm a doll collector…And, playing outside. We did that most of the time, especially in the summertime. And in the wintertime, we played outside, too. We'd play fox and . . . whatever you call it . . . run around in the snow, that kind of thing. Richardson: Did your brother leave Fargo after he graduated? Arvold: He left Fargo when he was still in college. He went to the Mohawk [drama] School in New York. I can remember taking him up there, and Charles Coburn and his wife had it at that time. And my father knew them. That was prior to his graduation and then he went to Yale Drama School on a fellowship after he graduated. Richardson: Did he work as an actor? Arvold: He didn't work as an actor. He was into designing and that kind of thing. Then he went to California during the war, and worked for North American Airline, I think, drafting . . . in the service. Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 7 of 10 Richardson: His wife was an NDSU grad too wasn’t she? Arvold: She attended NDSU. They were married before she graduated. I can remember taking Franny to New York. My mother and father and I took her to New York. They were married in The Little Church Around the Corner. I was the attendant. She had an interesting job. She got her training in Hollywood, through Max Factor, through my father. He introduced her to Abe Schorr (?) I think it was, and asked him to train her as a makeup artist. And then, when they moved back to New York from California, then she worked for a photographer in New York. And it was in the beginning of television, she went to CBS, and was probably one of the first makeup people in CBS Television, and stayed there for 40 years or so. She made up every President from Truman [later corrected to Eisenhower] on . . . Eisenhower, about five or six of them. Richardson: Did you ever have theatrical aspirations? Arvold: No! Stubborn! Don't tell me what to do! Outcast of Poker Flat. Richardson: Talk about some of the buildings that have been knocked down in Fargo. Arvold: Well, the Carnegie Library, which was a charming building. My mother was the first children's storyteller at the Fargo Public Library. So she had a quite a connection with it. But I can remember going down there to that building. It was round and they had a big, you know, where you check out books, you know. That was a marvelous facility. Then that went, and like I say, the Masonic Temple, some of the older homes. They should have been preserved. In my estimation. That was a bad cycle in Fargo, and it's not just my opinion. A lot of people feel that way. If you have, you know, memories back, of Fargo that go back as long as I go back in Fargo, and they're getting fewer and fewer, too. All of a sudden the newer generations are realizing there are things that should be preserved. Their heritage, you know, that should be preserved instead of, you know, knock it down and put up something that, well, I shouldn't talk too much. Richardson: Can you think of anything that happen while you were growing up like scandals, crimes, or anything like that? Arvold: Not really. Not that I can talk about. I think of a few good ones that I've heard of, but I don't think I'll record it. No. There was an interesting integration in Fargo. People came from all different areas of the country, and kind of found a base here where they could express themselves, and you know, the business community and the climate and everything. It was an interesting society, from what I've known about it. Dr. Tronnes over here came from Norway, and he was one of the founders of the Fargo Clinic. And Dr. Sand, he lived over on Fifth Street, just beyond Margaret; you know where that house is. And they were one of the founders of the Fargo Clinic, and the Darrows, of course, they founded…Dr. Darrow was a pioneer and he was probably the grandfather of Frank Darrow and Kent Darrow. He was a pioneer doctor in this area. And they founded the other clinic, on the south side. But it was an interesting society. I wasn't so much a part of it then. Richardson: Since your father was out at the Agricultural College, was there quite a gap between the town and gown? Arvold: I don't think there was probably as much of a gap as there is now. And he was, of course, well, because he brought the arts here they were patrons of the arts. And he knew most of the people in Fargo at the time. That was partly due to the arts development in this part of the country. Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 8 of 10 Richardson: Do you feel like you had a happy childhood in Fargo? Arvold: Oh, yes. A very happy childhood. I have no complaints about my childhood at all. And I traveled, probably more than I travel now. If my father went someplace in the summertime, we went. The family went by train. We traveled by train. Have you been down here to the Great Northern? The restaurant? I have so many memories of that train station down there that it's almost unbelievable. Always traveled by train. Never flew. Of course in those days, commercial airlines were not . . . I found a souvenir the other day from the 1933 Chicago World’s Fair. My father put on a program there for North Dakota Days. And then we went to the New York World's Fair, 1939, I think. And when I was real small we went to Europe in1930. He (My father) went as an emissary for the State Department dealing with rural life. He took the whole family. We were there for quite awhile. My mother bought dolls for me, dressed in the costume of every country we went through. I still have those. So I had a little exposure when I was young. Richardson: What was your specialty as a home economist? Arvold: In food service, food management. Richardson: What did you do in New York? Arvold: I worked at Schrafft's. I worked at Columbia University and a number of other institutions. I took some courses in food service management there at Columbia College. Richardson: What was it like going to college during the war? Arvold: Well, it was abnormal, put it that way. The military was the prime population. There were what, 400 students, I think, on the campus . . . There was an officer candidate school, an engineering battalion. They all lived out there on the campus. Richardson: Did you live at home when you were in college? Arvold: Oh yes. Talk about snow! I can remember on 12th Avenue up here there were drifts higher than cars. Richardson ‘s note: As I was going out the door, I asked Mary if any of the famous people her father brought to Fargo ever came to her home. She replied that many of them did, Marian Anderson and Sergei Rachmaninoff among them, adding, "I can remember my sorority sisters crawling on their hands and knees to peek into our porch, in the hopes of catching a glimpse of Nelson Eddy." Jerry Richardson: About the time that I stopped, we had started talking about some of the famous people your father brought to Fargo and your home. (static) Mary Arvold: (static) I remember Nelson Eddy showed me his contact lenses, of course that was new at the time. Of course not all of them came to our home. I remember years and years ago, when I was a small child, Carl Sandburg stayed in our home as a guest when he was giving a reading at the college, and then Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 9 of 10 I remember [Sergei] Rachmaninoff, this was at Festival Hall, when I was introduced to him, and he had a small, like a brass miniature radiator, that he was warming his hands over prior to the concert time. Tony Sarg and his Marionettes came there, as children, we were fascinated by them, and I do think Tony Sarg came to the home one time. Lawrence Tibbets, John Charles Thomas, Yehudi Menuhin, Fritz Kreisler; all of those people were there. I met most of those in the 1930s, probably from the 1935 period to the end of the '40s. And Leonard Warren and Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, when Sol Hurok was their agent. And of course Sol Hurok and my father were very good friends, and that's how he managed to acquire these artists in this part of the country. Oh, Marian Anderson and Paul Robeson. I still remember Paul Robeson because he had the most fantastic hands of anyone I've ever seen. He placed them on the piano when he was singing and I was enthralled by the power of the man. The Paul Johnson choir; I think they were a colored choir. Richardson: In those days, it was harder for black people… Arvold: Yes, it was difficult, I think it was with Marian Anderson that there was a problem locating a hotel in Fargo, and, my father, through negotiating, I think he was able to secure a room for her at the Gardner Hotel. But, in those days it was difficult. Richardson: (static) He was hired by the government? Arvold: He was hired partially by the North Dakota Agricultural College and partially by the Agriculture Department, and when he went to Europe in 1930 he was an emissary of the Agriculture Department, to study rural life in Europe. Richardson: Did you go with him on that trip? And what were the countries that you visited? Arvold: Yes, We sailed from Montreal to Iceland, with Arne Helgeson, who had graduated out here, and was at one time, the Icelandic Vice Consul in Chicago, and had come from Iceland, and we stayed with his mother in Rejavik. And then we left them there and we went to the Scandinavian countries, Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Richardson: And your father met the king of Norway? Arvold: I'm not sure I remember that. I know he talked with the literary figures throughout Europe, Selma Lagerlof, (static) . . . Austria, Holland, Belgium. Richardson: How long was that trip? Arvold: Three months, first of June to end of August. And then we went into England, Scotland, and then back to New York and of course in those days you went by ship. (static) Mary Arvold Oral History Interview, 1996-1997 Page 10 of 10 Copyright 2011 by Institute for Regional Studies & University Archives North Dakota State University Libraries This interview transcript was donated by the Fargo Heritage Society along with the recorded interview. It is not known who developed the original transcript, perhaps done by the interviewer Jerry Richardson. Very little editing, other than formatting, has been done to this transcript version by the Institute staff.
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