| Summary: | Pantzer was born in a suburb of Berlin, Germany in 1911, but immigrated to New York in 1929. He first worked for International Telegraph and Telephone as a customer service representative and then opened a restaurant, Gus, in the IT&T building. Topics: Immigration, World War I, World War II, Berlin, marriage, his New York restaurant University of Texas at San Antonio Archives and Special Collections MS 315. Veterans History Project Gustav Pantzer, Interview I, April 17, 2007 BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE FOUR Tellez: My name is Lisa Tellez. Today‟s date is April 17, 2007. Today I‟ll be continuing our interview with Gustav A. Pantzer. Also present today are Pam James and Brett James. The interview is taking place in Mr. Pantzer‟s home in San Antonio Texas. Mr. Pantzer, do I have your permission to record this interview? Pantzer: Yes, ma‟am— Tellez: Okay. Last time we finished up most of what we‟ll be talking about. We talked a lot about your restaurant and about the experiences in World War II and what you did, and we did briefly mention Katie. We talked about how you met Katie. I was hoping that today you could tell me a little bit about what you know about Katie‟s background. Pantzer: She was born 1911, and she came to this country 1928 with her parents and the brothers. And we were married in [19]36 and we lived happily together until she passed away, which was 1995. And we had three children. One died on account of the RH factor, which we didn‟t know about at the time. Tellez: Okay, I remember you mentioning that. Pantzer: Yeah Tellez: Okay, and tell me about the other two children. Pantzer: Well one is a boy; he‟s now sixty-six. He‟s now retired. He had quite a bit of schooling, and he‟s still going to school. [chuckle] Tellez: Wow! Pantzer: Yeah— [chuckle] Tellez: What‟s his name? Pantzer: Robert— We call him Bob. He‟s a good boy. His last job was…He‟s a consulting engineer. When things go down, they call him and he brings them up. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 2 Tellez: Oh, okay. That‟s a good job. Pantzer: And when the times up, then they fire him. [laughter] Pantzer: Which they did. Remember, Pam? Pam James: Um hmm. Pantzer: She [referring to katie] has a double MA. She‟s a mama. Tellez: Oh, okay. Pantzer: That‟s what she told us. Tellez: And what did you say it was? “A double” what? Pantzer: MA Pam James: She had twins. Pantzer: She‟s says “MA is nothing. I got a double MA.” [laughter] Tellez: That‟s a good one! I wish I would have known that one when I was doing the mother thing. Pam James: One of the twins died when he was a baby, but— Tellez: Okay, and Betsy [Pantzer‟s daughter], what‟s her last name? Pantzer: Hauber; H_A_U_B_E_R, which is actually a Norwegian name. It sounds German, but it‟s Norwegian. Tellez: Oh. That‟s beautiful. Okay, and how old is Betsy? Pantzer: Betsy‟s— What, sixty-two? Pam James: Sixty-four? No, sixty-three. Pantzer: She has four children. And a lot of grandchildren; that makes me have a lot of great grandchildren. Tellez: How many do you have total, Mr. Pantzer? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 3 Pantzer: How many what? Tellez: How many grandchildren and great grandchildren do you have? Pantzer: Well I got, the grandchildren is four, six— Six. Right Pamela? Kathy— Pam James: Maria— Pantzer: And Betsy has four. That‟s six grandchildren. Pam James: Yeah Pantzer: And fourteen great grandchildren. Tellez: Wow Pantzer: Yeah Tellez: Now, where did your children go to school? Pantzer: The children? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: Well, first they went to Tottenville high school. Tellez: How do you spell that? Pantzer: Tottenville? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: T_O_T_T_E_N_V_I_L_L_E. Tottenville. Tellez: Okay. Thank you. Pantzer: That‟s where they graduated from high school. Pam James. Staten Island. Part of New York. Pantzer: Then the boy went to Brooklyn Polytech; then he went to Columbia University. And I don‟t know what university he‟s in now. I don‟t know the name. Tellez: What‟s he studying for now? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 4 Pantzer: Psychology. Tellez: Oh, okay; that‟s a good one. Pantzer: He got a degree, another master‟s in it, but now he wants to go for his PHD. And I asked him, “When will that be?” He says, “Never.” [laughter] Tellez: It takes a long time. Pantzer: But they‟re— We are a happy Christian family. Yeah. So that‟s all I can say. They were never, never in trouble. And I think they‟re pretty good kids. Tellez: Yes, well, like their parents. Pantzer: I think Betsy knows them. I mean, Pamela knows them. Tellez: They‟re good because they were raised well. They had good parents. Pantzer: Well, we tried our best. We tried our best. They had a good bringing up, and they had a good youth. We taught them first class, within our means. There was not much that was denied, within reason. So they had good friends, and they were pretty happy all along. They still are. Tellez: So would you say that during the time that you were raising your kids and you had your restaurant in New York— What economic bracket would you say you were in? Were you middleclass, upper-middleclass? Pantzer: Well, having a restaurant, of course, kept me away from home more than it should—long hours. Economically, we were doing all right. Tellez: Did Katie sometimes go in and stay at the restaurant with you when the kids— Pantzer: No, no. We had all men, except at the end when I couldn‟t help myself, I had to engage a woman to push the coffee wagon. And I detected that she had a little pimple here! [Mr. Pantzer points at his abdomen.] And she said, “Oh, I‟m not due for another month.” I said, “Well, you better stay home.” Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, was she married, or did— Pantzer: The girl? Tellez: Yes, sir. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 5 Pantzer: I really don‟t know. I just hired her to push the coffee wagons. We had coffee wagons going through the building. And she pushed one of the wagons. Tellez: And at that time was it considered inappropriate for women who were expecting [a baby] to be out working in public? Pantzer: Well, we didn‟t ask many questions. And we just took it— The facts showed that she was expecting, and I thought it was not proper for her to have the baby in the place. Tellez: Oh! I see. Okay, okay. Cause, you know, I don‟t know when it was that this changed, but there were times when women who were expecting stayed home pretty much because it was considered very private. Pantzer: Well, we weren‟t that big to be strict with that. Yeah, we were small people, you know. Tellez: Oh, okay. So was it then usually the more upper-class people who would do that? [avoid being seen in public while pregnant] Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: Oh, okay. When you were raising the kids, you and Katie, what did y‟all—and I realize that you were at the restaurant most of the time—but sometimes, when y‟all did do things together as a family, what did y‟all like to do? Pantzer: Oh, well, weekends I was home. We had a little boat. We used to go fishing together, the four of us, and we used to go hiking together. And what we did, we did together. Tellez: That‟s nice! Where did y‟all fish at? Pantzer: We fished in New Jersey. We had a property on the lake. We had property at the lake which was pretty rich in fish. And that‟s where I had a boat. And that‟s where we went weekends. The boat was big enough to accommodate the four of us. And the name of the boat was “Bobet”—Bobby, Betsy, Bobbet. Tellez: Oh! Pam James: I never knew that! Pantzer: Oh, yeah, yeah. Pam James: Bobet. Tellez: So I‟m assuming that B_O_B_E_T is how you spelled it? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 6 Pam James: B_O_B_E_T_T_E? How did you spell it? Pantzer: Bobet? B_O_B_E_T. Yeah, we had a lot of— Of course we were active in our church life—the whole family. Tellez: What church did you go to? Do you remember the name of it? Pantzer: Yes, Eltingville Lutheran; E_L_T_I_N_G_V_I_L_L_E. That‟s where we lived. That‟s the name of the town. Pam James: It was all on Staton Island, right? It‟s one of the five boroughs of New York City. Pantzer: Yeah. Pam James: So it‟s right across the harbor from— Staton Island is across the harbor from where? Pantzer: Actually, it‟s across from New Jersey. Pam James: Okay, but it‟s one of the boroughs of New York City, right? Pantzer: It‟s Richmond county, but actually it‟s closer, geographically, to New Jersey. And New Jersey wanted to grab it once, but it didn‟t work out. It‟s part of New York City. Pam James: But you can look across the harbor and you can see the Statue of Liberty— Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes. Pam James: And every day you would ride the boat to get to work, right? Pantzer: I had to take the ferryboat every morning. Pam James: And you‟d go past the Statue of Liberty? Pantzer: Every day, twice, yes—coming and going. Tellez: And I bet you liked that. Pantzer: Oh, yes. Tellez: Do you remember the address of your home in New York? Pantzer: 71 Van Brunt Street. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 7 Tellez: Do you remember some of your fondest memories of your children growing up and you can Katie were raising them? What are the happiest times you remember? Pantzer: The happiest time was, I was preaching that morning in church—see, I used to be a lay preacher on the side—and [the children] came over to me and said, “Pappa, we love you.” And I thought that was very nice. And I never forgot it. Tellez: So, they were proud of you, I bet. Pantzer: Well, I don‟t know, but anyway, they were happy. I think the girl sang in the choir. The boy did for awhile, but then he quit because he was the only boy. [laughter] Pantzer: He quit! Yeah. And in confirmation class, when the pastor asked Betsy, “What do you really treasure the most?”—he asked her after the confirmation class—and Betsy says, “The telephone!” [laughter] Tellez: When is the first time you owned a telephone? Do you remember? Pantzer: Well, now— We had a phone since we were married. Everywhere we went, we had a phone. Tellez: And when y‟all were in New York, how did you get around? What kind of transportation did you use? Pantzer: Before the automobile? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: Well, there was a streetcar, and my wife had a bicycle. As a matter of fact, she did the shopping by bicycle. Pam James: I didn‟t know that! Pantzer: Oh, yeah, yeah. And we did a lot of walking. And of course when the automobile came along, it all became a little easier. We became lazy, or whatever. [laughter] Pam James: But you would take the train to the ferry and the ferry to Manhattan. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 8 Pantzer: Oh, we took the train. We had a little train. We took a train to the terminal, and then we took the ferry. That was the way of transportation. The train belonged to the [inaudible] in Ohio—BNO. Pam James: And how would you get to your restaurant from the ferry? Pantzer: I walked. It wasn‟t too far. Tellez: And you enjoyed walking; I can tell. Pantzer: Yeah. The ferry then was a nickel. But it was included in the commutation ticket. And then the ferry went up to almost seventy-five cents, and today it‟s for free. They don‟t charge any ferry anymore. I was surprised to hear that. But they don‟t take automobiles anymore since this 911 happened [terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001] for security reasons. But there‟s no more charge on the Staton Island ferry. Yeah, I was surprised cause the subways I think [are] a dollar or a dollar and a half. The subway used to be five cents. You dropped a nickel in the slot and you turned the turnstile. Tellez: And about what year was that, more or less? Pantzer: 1929 to 1932, I think. Tellez: That‟s good information. Pantzer: The newspaper—morning paper—was two cents, and the evening paper was three cents. Yes ma‟am. Tellez: And how much was a cup of coffee back then? Pantzer: Well, for breakfast, I got two eggs, toast, and coffee, and that was a quarter. Tellez: Wow! Pantzer: Yes, ma‟am—the United Cigar store. It was twenty-five cents. But then, you made sixty dollars a month. That was my starting pay—sixty-three dollars a month. And the third month I came home, and the envelope I had seventy-three dollars in there. And I said to the boys in there, “Boy, they made a mistake. I better not touch that money.” And Monday morning I went in and said, “You made a mistake. There‟s too much money in here.” She said, “No, you got a raise.” Yeah, I thought they made a mistake. Tellez: Well, you‟re very honest. A lot of people wouldn‟t have said anything. Pam James: Yes. But that‟s why he got the raise. Tellez: Yes! Now, Mr. Pantzer, tell me a little bit about your church in New York. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 9 Pantzer: Well, it was strictly a Norwegian church. It was, as a matter of fact, as we came in we saw “ELC.” I says, “Oh, that‟s for us evangelical Lutheran.” It wasn‟t so. It was “Everyone‟s Lutheran Church.” And they all spoke Norwegian. So my wife said, “I think we better go to Saint George. We have to search for a German-speaking church. I said, “Nope. We‟re gonna stay here, and we‟ll convert those people to speak English.” Tellez: And did you? Pantzer: Yes, ma‟am. Tellez: Oh, wow! Pantzer: And on one occasion we had a dinner, and everybody was there, you know. And I got up, I said, “Now you heard all about the Ingabrets and all Norwegian names, Savatsans, Johnsons, and now Gustav Pantzer stands in front of you.” It‟s a German name, you know. So they all got a big kick out of it and they really laughed. But, then, first they have the service in Norwegian, but then they changed it over to English. And we got along very, very well. It was a good bunch of people. Right, Pam? Pam James: The ones I knew, yeah. I knew the Johnsons. Pantzer: Remember the Johnsons next door? Pam James: Yeah, I remember them. They were nice people. Pantzer: She [Mrs. Johnson] came over once and she said, “I have some German-made dishes, and I don‟t want them in the house. You want them?” My wife said, “Yes.” We took them, and after the war was all over my wife said, “You want those dishes back?” [Ms. Johnson] said, “Yes.” [laughter] Pantzer: Yeah, yeah, we got along very well. They were good people. Tellez: And do you remember the Johnsons‟ first names? Pantzer: No. We use to call him “the Duke.” He was a very fine man full of tricks. My accountant came on one Sunday for dinner, and we took a walk in the woods. And [Mr. Johnson] came along. And he said to Freddie, the accountant, “Now tell me young man, you went to school in this country and I didn‟t. Which is correct, two and two are five, or two and two is five?” He said, “Which is correct English?” And Freddie the CPA responded, “I think it‟s is five.” [Mr. Johnson] said, “Oh? I thought it was four.” [laughter] Pantzer: He was full of tricks like that. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 10 Tellez: Yes, yes. No wonder ya‟ll got along so well. Cause you like to play little tricks sometimes too. Pantzer: Yes. And he asked me, “Can you say „the hen, the hen, and not the rooster?‟” And I said, “Sure.” And I says, “the hen, the hen, and not the rooster.” And he says, “You‟re wrong. I said, „you should say the hen, the hen, and not the rooster,‟ so the answer‟s „the hen and the hen‟” He was full of tricks like that. He was good company. Tellez: He sounds like he was a very happy person. Pantzer: Yeah. I had to hide his beer in the backyard because his wife wouldn‟t want him to drink. So he asked me to get him some beers and hide them in the backyard. Tellez: Oh, that‟s funny. And you did it? Pantzer: Yep, yep. When she wasn‟t looking out the window he went over and could get the beer. Yeah, he was alright, though; he didn‟t get drunk or anything. Tellez: Did she ever catch him? Pam James: Did he ever get caught? Pantzer: No, no, no. He timed them right. Tellez: Good thing, because you would have been in trouble too. She would have got mad at you! Well, now, Mr. Pantzer, did you and Katie sometimes travel? Pantzer: We traveled a lot. We went [to] every state in the Union, except for Alaska and Hawaii. Tellez: Wow! Pantzer: But we traveled a lot. Tellez: And was this after you retired? Pantzer: Yes. Well, she [Katie] traveled by herself while I was still in business. She would come down here [to San Antonio] ever so often with the kids, when I couldn‟t make it. But afterwards, what I did, I would go to travel agencies, and I would say, “I would like to go to Yellowstone Park. How do I get there? Where do I go, [which] hotels—” and they gave me all sorts of information. And we used the information. That‟s how we traveled. Travel agencies, they knew what to do, when to go, where to go. And we took advantage of that. Tellez: Now, did you drive? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 11 Pantzer: Yeah, we drove. Yeah, we both drove. Tellez: What kind of car did you have? Pantzer: Oh, I had a Chrysler. Tellez: Do you remember what year it was? Pantzer: I got it new. I forgot what year. And the wife had a little form. I got it at that government auction. When I sold it, the guy said, “Oh, you got a hundred thousand miles on it.” I said, “No, sir! I got more than two hundred thousand miles on it.” And I did! Yeah. And she was still perfect. She was still a good car. Tellez: I bet you took good care of it. Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: Now, did you stay in touch with relatives— Did you still have relatives in Germany throughout the years? Pantzer: Well, the only one that was left was a cousin. And one of the brothers went back after the war. And he looked them up, and the government had given her a villa. Their people were very, very rich—her uncle and aunt. But during the war everything went. But the government would reimburse them by giving quite a beautiful villa. And her husband was lost in the war. He was in Russia some place. And the parents were all gone. The house was bombed out, what have you. And the brother said, “Don‟t go back. Remember the way it was. Don‟t ever go back, because the people… no smile, no nothing. Nobody goes to church anymore, no smile, no friendliness. They were all sour, so— Yeah, both of them went back. Yeah. And the cousin, I don‟t know if she‟s still alive or not. She was my age. Yeah. Tellez: And were they the ones telling you not to go back because the people were sour? Pantzer: The brothers told me not to go back on a visit. I had no intentions anyway, because I gave them addresses of people I knew—people I went to school with or— They couldn‟t find any of them. They were all gone. They‟re all gone. So they said, “Don‟t even bother.” I had no intentions of going back. [The United States] is a beautiful country, let me tell you. We had good times traveling in these states—real, real good times. Tellez: Here in the United States? Pantzer: Oh, yeah, yes. We would drive in a state [with] no plans, not knowing where we were gonna go. We would say, “Let‟s get lost.” And we [would] just drive. We MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 12 came to a place here in Texas, there was a boy sitting outside the store, or whatever, and I asked him, “Hey, where does this road go to?” And he says, “Nowhere.” [laughter] Tellez: So, what year did you say y'all came to San Antonio to live? Pantzer: When we came permanently? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: Well, the wife came before on her own once in a while. And permanently, we came for the summer, and then when it was winter up there we came down here. Is that how it was, Pam? Pam James: I‟m trying to think. Pantzer: We rented the house on Overhill. Pam James: And then you went back in the summer. Pantzer: 1971, 1972—something like that Pam James: Was Tracy still alive when you— Pantzer: Oh, yes! Remember at the airport when we came to visit, and I went like this [Mr. Pantzer stretches his arms out] and she came to me right away. I never forgot it! Tellez: Who‟s Tracy? Pam James: My daughter. Pantzer: She was a sweet little girl. Pam James: But then you moved down permanently. Pantzer: Yeah, when was that? Pam James: I think— Wasn‟t it [1972]? Pantzer: Yeah, must be, yeah. We rented a house from [Katie‟s father] all year round. But we used it only in the winter. Pam James: From my father. Pantzer: Yeah, your father. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 13 Tellez: And what was your father‟s name? Pam James: Hal Clavin. Henry Clavin. Pantzer: Yeah, he was a contractor. And I sent him the rent money every month in the summer. And when we came down one year, he gave me a bankbook. I said, “What‟s this?” He said, “That‟s the rent you sent.” He put it in the bank for us. He said, “The house would have stayed empty anyway.” So he put all that money in the bank. It was what? Two hundred and ninety dollars a month we paid. And he put it all in the bank for us, and he gave us the bankbook. Tellez: Oh, that was so nice! Pantzer: Yeah, he was a good man. Pam James: Yeah, I didn‟t ever know that. Tellez: Now, Mr. Pantzer, when did you say you retired? If I already asked you that, I‟m sorry. Pantzer: 1970. Tellez: And what made you decide to retire? Pantzer: Well, first of all, I couldn‟t get the help anymore and they wouldn‟t renew the lease because they themselves all moved out to New Jersey. The place was shut down so to speak. So my wife said, “Either you quit, or their going to bury you.” Cause I couldn‟t get the help anymore. And it got very, very hard. And they wouldn‟t renew the lease for another year, so I was alright. And that‟s when we quit. And then a year or so afterwards, they all moved to New Jersey. Pam James: But they moved to the Pocono Mountains first. Tellez: Oh, okay. Tell me about that. Tell me about the first place you moved to. Pantzer: The first time? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: Well then, we had place in Pennsylvania before because the wife couldn‟t take the climate on Staton Island anymore. She had asthma. And so we bought a place in the Pocono Mountains. It was a nice little place. It was high up on a mountain. Tellez: How beautiful! MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 14 Pantzer: And she enjoyed it. It was the most beautiful country, but it got too cold in the winter. So then we went to Florida. And then she couldn‟t stay in Florida. So we said, “Well, then we‟ll go to Texas.” Yeah, yeah. Tellez: Oh, okay, I was going to ask you why you moved to Texas. Was it the climate? Pantzer: Well, I had a nice concession on the golf course in Florida—a restaurant concession. I did very, very well. And I enjoyed it. I had a contract. Tellez: And it was on the golf course? Pantzer: Yeah, right on the golf course, by the water. And we had a beautiful condominium. Everything was going perfect. And then the doctor said to my wife, “No, you better not stay here.” Cause it rained everyday. So, we didn‟t want to go back to Pennsylvania, [and] we didn‟t want to go back to Staton Island, so we said, “Well, we‟ll try Texas.” So we came to visit San Antonio, and we stayed cause we liked it. Tellez: What did you like about San Antonio? Pantzer: People [were] very friendly. And we— Who was here? Gertrude was here? Pam James: Um hmmm. You mean Aunt Gertrude? Pantzer: Hal, Johnny—quite a bit of the wife‟s family—they were all here. So we felt at home. Tellez: Okay. And how did she [Katie] do with the climate here? Pantzer: She did all right. Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, since you commented on how nice the people were in San Antonio, I have to ask you, have you noticed things changing? Pantzer: In San Antonio? Tellez: Do [people] act differently now? Pantzer: Well, San Antonio got too big. It has now over a million people living here, and it‟s the eighth largest city in the country. And people start to rush here as they did up North. Before, Hal—he‟s our brother—use to say, “Nobody rushed in Texas.” But that has all changed. People are not the same people as when we came. They‟re also running around, and rushing, and driving, and going, and pushing. But they‟re still friendly people. Yeah, yeah. As Admiral Nimitz said, “You can take a Texan out of Texas, but you can‟t take Texas out of the Texan.” And that is very true. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 15 Tellez: So do you consider yourself— Would you consider yourself more of a Texan than you were a New Yorker? Pantzer: Well, I feel more at home here than I did in New York. Tellez: Okay. Pantzer: Yes, because people are much friendlier, and courteous, and they remember the part of the Bible which says, “Love your neighbor.” And they do. Yes, ma‟am. Tellez: Okay, we covered these [questions] and we covered that one. Okay, I wanted to ask you about some of the— This is probably the last thing we‟re going to talk about now. I wanted to ask you about your experiences [and] what you remember about some of the major events in the United States. We already talked about the depression, and we talked about World War II, but I‟d like for you to talk about experiences such as the atomic bomb. What did you and Katie think about that? And what do you remember about it? Pantzer: The atomic bomb? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: I remember it very well! It was President Truman‟s decision to make, which was a very hard decision to make. And, well, for awhile it shook everybody up in the country because they, at the time, didn‟t quite know what extent [of] damage that bomb could do. But then, of course, they found out. Tellez: You‟re referring to Hiroshima. Pantzer: Yeah. And the war with Japan. And it was a very hard decision to make for President Truman. You know, he took over after F.D.R. [Franklin Delano Roosevelt] right? F.D.R. was the president during the war. He was here when Pearl Harbor came along, which was December seventh. And Roosevelt died, and Truman took over, and he had to make that decision. But Uncle Sam took I don‟t know how many people from Japan—he let come over here—who were hurt badly. He tried to cure them in this country—the Japanese folks who were hurt over there. Yeah, yeah. It was a tough thing, but it ended the war. The war with Germany was already over, you know. Yeah. Hitler had given up already. Did I ever tell you about Admiral Halsey? Did I ever tell you that story? It was a cute little story. Tellez: Oh, isn‟t he the one that you told he couldn‟t stay in the restaurant because— Pantzer: Yes. Tellez: Yes! And I read about him after you told me that story. I thought, “Wow, no wonder [he] said—” MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 16 Pantzer: I said, “Sir, you‟re off limits. This place is restricted.” [laughter] Pantzer: And he finished his coffee and he just walked out. And then a fellow, he was a chief petty officer, he came over to me. He says, “You know that was?” I says, “I don‟t know.” He said, “That was Admiral Halsey.” I said, “Well, I think I‟ll be going to Siberia.” [laughter] Tellez: That‟s the part I was trying to remember, where you said, “I‟m gonna go to Siberia.” But you ended up not going, so that‟s good. That‟s a great story. One of the professors was reading that story, and she laughed. Professor Mitchel, she thought that was so funny. Now, what did you think about the Cold War? Were you nervous when you— Pantzer: The Cold War— President Reagan did quite a bit during the Cold War to calm it down, to make sure that we [were] protected. And we had planes in the air all the time. All the time. I don‟t know if they still do or not, I don‟t know. All the time in the air, all the time. So that was President Reagan. As a matter of fact, he was the one who said, “Mr. Khrushchev, tear down this wall.” But he was in Berlin. And the Russians, they‟re good people, but they never were our friends, and they‟re not our friends now. Tellez: Hold that thought for just a second, I need to— END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE FOUR (…2 minutes) BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE FOUR Tellez: Okay. Can you repeat that for me? You were saying that we‟re at war now— Pantzer: Yes. Well, we are over in Afghanistan. We are over in Iraq, not too far from Iran. We‟re trying to help Israel as much as possible, and it all boils down to keeping communism away. Because the war in Vietnam, it was just a war not to get communism to spread anymore than it [had]. And what we had in New York, September [11, 2001], that was part of the war. And everything‟s going on in London, everything‟s going on in Berlin, and all over the world. It‟s just a different war. It‟s just a different war. And as President Bush said the other day—I don‟t know if you heard him—he said, “This was nothing, [compared to] what they had in mind for us, and what they‟re able to do—especially North Korea and Iran.” Tellez: Do you worry about that? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 17 Pantzer: Well, it‟s not too pleasant a thing to have on your mind. But they can launch missiles from submarines and put us out of business within two minutes. They‟re able to do that. Nuclear. Nuclear war. Tellez: Did you have those same concerns during the Cold War? Pantzer: Well, you have [the same] concerns as you had in World War II, the Cold War we were hoping would never flair up. Right? Tellez: Yes. And of course there was a lot that we didn‟t know about, since it was kept secret. Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. War is just a terrible, terrible thing. Tellez: And what would Katie say about it? Pantzer: Well, she felt the same way. We had a hospital out on Staton Island. First it was a TB [tuberculosis] hospital, but then they did away TB and they got the prisoners and they got the veterans who were hurt badly over there. And Katie went there once in a while. It‟s a terrible sight to see when you see men sitting without arms watching fish go by in a tank. And that‟s all they could do. And the war brought it on, right? So that‟s why I say, “War is murder.” It‟s just murder. That‟s all it is. It‟s murder. Pam James: He was against Iraq from the very beginning—going into Iraq. Tellez: So you were opposed to going into Iraq and taking— Pam James: You were opposed to it from the very beginning. Pantzer: People are opposed. Rightfully so. But there‟s pro and con, right? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: There‟s pro and con. [President Bush] said, “We have to go in there because this fellow Hussein, he had nuclear weapons.” They looked and looked, [and] he did not have any nuclear weapons. There was nothing. But, they‟re Muslims, right? They‟re not Christian people. They are afraid that communism will take over. Well, it didn‟t work out for Russia. They went to be capitalistic in Russia. They got away from the communistic form of government, but they‟re not so happy over there. Tellez: And why do you think that is? Pantzer: Because they don‟t know how to do the best with the country as we do. They have a lot of treasures, they have a lot of good land and all—same as other countries. Either they don‟t want to learn, they don‟t want to do it, or they don‟t do it. But here in MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 18 the United States we explore. We have more scientists in this country than any other country in the world. Right here. People aren‟t that ambitious over there. They‟re more of the type, “gimme, gimme, gimme.” And Uncle Sam is always the one who gives, gives, gives. Tellez: And why do you think that it became that way? Pantzer: Well, I think Uncle Sam should stop giving, because we need them, they turned their back on us, right? France, Germany, they all turned their back on us. But before that, “gimme, gimme, gimme.” Uncle Sam gave the Marshal Plan. The only country that paid back was Finland, the small country. Tellez: Oh, I didn‟t know that. Pantzer: That‟s the only country that paid back the loans Uncle Sam made. The others didn‟t pay back a penny! This country [the United States] gave Russia fifty destroyers, and I don‟t know what else—loads and loads of things. Never got anything back! Never. But Finland is the only ones who paid. And that‟s a little poor country. Germany, after they had the Marshal Plan, they put signs up all over [that read], “Yankee go home!”—after they had the money. And then President Bush asked for [help from] our friends, [and] they also denied help—over in Afghanistan. Yeah. Tellez: What do you think we could have done differently before we actually went to war with Iraq? Do you think we should have tried more diplomacy? Pantzer: I can‟t offer an opinion on that. It‟s a mean war. I wish we could pull every man out of there to come home. But if it‟s right or wrong, I don‟t know. All I say is, “let‟s get our boys home,” instead of being over there getting slaughtered like they are. Tellez: It doesn‟t seem like it‟s going anywhere, does it? It‟s not doing any good. Pantzer: No. I think the next election, I think they‟re probably going to lose just for that. I think the democrats will get a president. And I think it will change. It has changed already in Congress. We have more democrats now in Congress than we have republicans. And [the war] is the reason why. Tellez: Do you consider yourself a republican or a democrat? Pantzer: I‟m a republican. Tellez: Okay. I figured that. Pantzer: I always was. Pam James: A liberal republican! [chuckle] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 19 Tellez: Yeah. You do seem a little bit liberal. You do seem a little bit more liberal—maybe moderate‟s a better word—than a lot of republicans. Pantzer: [chuckle] Well, actually I‟m just a little reed in the wind that every wind will break. Tellez: I think you‟re just really smart, Mr. Pantzer. I think you just think for yourself instead of joining a group and thinking like you‟re suppose to think—or they say you‟re suppose to think. I think you tend to think for yourself. Pantzer: Well, I remember a saying in our auditorium at the school in Berlin, which was a saying by Bismarck. You ever hear of Bismarck? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: Yeah. Well, he said, “Tie yourself up to the fatherland. Out in the world, you are nothing but a little straw that every wind will break.” That was a saying. It was written big, big, big. So I said to myself, “Bismarck, you‟re a good man, but you‟re wrong.” [laughter] Tellez: That‟s funny. So you did like Bismarck, then. Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: What did you like about Bismarck? Pantzer: Well, he was actually the one who united Germany. Before, there were all different kingdoms over there and republics. And then came the war of 1871, Prussia and France, and after, Bismarck actually united and made Germany. Actually, Germany‟s a newer country than we are here, as such. But he was the adviser to the Keiser. Have you heard of the Keiser? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: [inaudible] My mother hated the Keiser. Ooh, did she hate that Keiser! Tellez: Wasn‟t it [Keiser] Wilhelm who threw Bismarck out, and then that‟s when everything— Pantzer: Yeah. Well, that‟s right. That‟s right. He threw [an] inkpot at Bismarck. He‟s the one. You‟re right. Tellez: And then everything fell apart. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 20 Pantzer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tellez: Because [Wilhelm] got rid of a very good adviser. Pantzer: [Wilhelm] was nothing but a dictator without brains. He rattled the saber, you know. Pam James: Is that where they got the term saber rattling? Pantzer: Yeah. Saber rattling. That‟s where it comes from. He did. Tellez: Oh, okay! That‟s interesting. Pantzer: England built a fleet because, well, England‟s a country that needs a fleet. It‟s a island, so to speak. And the Keiser wanted to keep up with them. They built a ship, he built a ship. And it was a race going on. And the war was in the makings. And the Keiser, of course— When he went aboard ship, the ship had to fire two hundred solutes. Guns. Two hundred. And in my estimation, he had no brains whatsoever. So, I think he was a real dummy. But, he was a dictator, that‟s what he was! Tellez: Yes, with a bad ego problem. Pantzer: Yeah! And then when it was all over he took off in the middle of the night, and he went to Holland, and left everything behind. But I‟m sure he took enough jewels, or whatever, along. But he made it to Holland during the night. Yeah. My mother hated that Keiser. She would say, “He eats the [inaudible] and we get the tail!” Yeah, that‟s how it goes. Tellez: Well, Mr. Pantzer, are you comfortable talking about Katie passing away, or do you want to skip that? Pantzer: Oh, I‟m comfortable to talk about anything. I have no skeleton in the closet. Tellez: Okay, well I didn‟t know if it would be too uncomfortable for you. It‟s kind of sad, and it‟s a turning point in your life. But if you‟re comfortable, tell me what you remember about that, and then where you went from there. What did you do after that? Pantzer: Oh, well, what did I do, Pamela? I didn‟t anything. I stayed where I was. She passed away in [1995]. She took sick in eighty-nine. She was sick for six years. Pam James: She had a stroke. Pantzer: And she was sick. Yeah. Pamela came to see her ever so often. Pam James: In the nursing home every week. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 21 Pantzer: We kept her home as long as we could. And we had a lot of help. I‟ll tell you, her sickness cost me 200,000 dollars. That‟s what it cost me because we had a lot of help at home. And at the time Medicare didn‟t, the doctor‟s didn‟t accept the assignment as they do now. And radiologists— You had big, big bills. But, anyway, when it got too bad, then Dr. Mel, he said, “You can‟t handle her at home anymore. You gotta put her in a nursing home.” And you know, I didn‟t have the nerve to do it. I called Betsy. I called in the morning. I says, “Betsy?” She said, “Are you whistling?” Because she [previously] said, “All you have to do is whistle and I‟ll come.” She was in New York. I said, “Yes, I‟m whistling.” And there she was in the afternoon. And Beverly and Betsy put her in a nursing home—in Morningside. And that‟s where she died. How long was she there? About nine months or so. Pam James: How long was she there? Pantzer: Yeah. Pam James: She went in ninety-four. Pantzer: She what? Pam James: She went in there in [1994]. She died December fifth, [1995]. Pantzer: Yeah, Dr. [inaudible] said, “You can‟t handle her anymore.” Tellez: What happened at home that you couldn‟t handle her there anymore? Pantzer: It took almost three people to lift her. Yeah. Tellez: Was she conscious, or coherent? Pantzer: Well, she was paralyzed. She could use her left arm. Right, Pam? Pam James: Yeah. Pantzer: But she couldn‟t talk. And she had trouble walking. Tellez: And this was since her stroke in ninety-five? I‟m sorry, I mean eighty-nine. Pantzer: Yeah. Eighty-nine she had the stroke. Yeah. She couldn‟t talk. And once I brought home some dessert from Luby‟s—some custard they have, with caramel sauce—and I made lunch and I gave her this custard. And mind you, she couldn‟t talk. She looked at me, and she said, “Did you make this?” I said, “Hey!” Tellez: Oh, wow! MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 22 Pantzer: As clear as anything! “Did you make this?” [chuckle] But the nursing home was all right. As one doctor said, “Nursing homes are all right if somebody is with them.” So I got there in the mornings at seven o‟clock and I stayed until seven o‟clock. And then friends and Pamela were like a little relief in between, you know. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then I stayed in the house by myself until I started to realize that I can‟t handle this anymore. Cause I started to get a little on the weak side. I tried to make our checks, and I couldn‟t read so well anymore. I said, “Uh-oh, things are happening.” And it was a long process, and sure enough. Tellez: And when did that start? How old were you? Pantzer: Six years ago. Yeah. I came here [to an assisted living facility] six years ago. Tellez: So you lived on your own until you were eighty-nine. Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes! Pam James: He drove until he was eighty-nine. Tellez: Wow, Mr. Pantzer! Pam James: Till he was— No. When did you quit driving? Until you were ninety? You drove until you were ninety years old? Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: Wow! Why did Katie pass away? Did she have complications of some sort? Pantzer: Well, I asked the doctor. I asked, “Doctor, what really was the cause of her death?” He said, “pneumonia.” Actually, I think the whole system started to give out. Right, Pamela? Pam James: Yeah. Her lungs were really bad. Tellez: Oh, from the asthma all those years. Pam James: Yeah, she had terrible bron— What did she have? Emphysema? Pantzer: Yeah. Pam James: But she never smoked. Pantzer: But I asked the cardiologist, I said, “Tell me, why did she have the stroke?” He says, “Oh, well, I know why she had the stroke. It could have been prevented.” She complained, “I think I had a stroke.” But she was in good shape. And we had some doctor. He said, “I‟ll put her in the hospital for observation overnight.” And I had made MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 23 an appointment with Dr. Neely. He was the brain surgeon—a neurologist. And when she was in the morning in the hospital, he says, “No, she‟s all right. She didn‟t have a stroke.” Pam James: What was his name? Pantzer: He was a real schlemiel [incompetent person]. But what they did— She had open heart surgery, right? And then the arteries started to block again, and they gave her what you call a balloon. Tellez: Oh, the angioplasty. Pantzer: Yeah. And I asked doctor Kramer, I said, “Hey, doctor—” He says, “You come in and watch.” And I went in and watched as he did it. I said, “Where does that stuff [dislodged blockage in the arteries] go to?” He says, “Oh, the body will absorb it.” No so! It went into the brain. And that caused the stroke. And I got that from [an] authority. And that caused the stroke. Now when they do it, they have a vacuum. And they suck it right out. It does not stay in the system anymore. Tellez: Yeah, I wondered about that. Cause when they use that balloon, I wondered how they keep the [blockage] from— Pantzer: Well, as they do [the procedure], they have a vacuum and they clean stuff right out. It doesn‟t travel in the body anymore. And that‟s why she had the stroke. Tellez: Now before that, she had had a bypass. Pantzer: Yeah. His name was Dr. Griffin. Pam James: No. It was a different one. The one that ignored you… Pantzer: Dr. Kramer Pam James: No, there was another neurologist. Pantzer: Dr. Armstrong Pam James: No Pantzer: Dr. Neely Pam James: No Pantzer: Dr. Marim Pam James: No MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 24 Pantzer: That‟s all we had. [laughter] Tellez: Maybe it‟s somebody who just consulted— Pam James: Yeah, I think he was just at the hospital— Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes! Pam James: I can‟t think of his name. Pantzer: Yes, a [inaudible] and they lured him to the hospital. This fellow stood there, he says, “I don‟t know. I don‟t know. I don‟t know.” And then this [inaudible] Dr. Marim came. He took one look and he said, “She had a stroke.” And this other fellow, he just stood there. He says, “I don‟t know. I don‟t know.” And he took one look. And then she had the massive stroke during the night at the hospital. And that was the end of it. Yeah. That‟s how it goes. Tellez: Yeah, because lot‟s of times before you have a massive stroke, you‟ll have little miniature strokes. Pantzer: That‟s what happened. That‟s exactly right. Tellez: And then they ignored it. Pantzer: Yeah. Exactly right. Tellez: Was it all of that medical care, or just the nursing home that ended up costing you 200,000 dollars? Pantzer: Well, no, at home. When I had [her] home, I had people from the nursing association, I had Beverly, I had Helen— Remember Helen, that black girl? [Mr. Pantzer addresses Pam James] She was a good girl. And I had some other girls. But I had a big payroll. They all wanted to get paid. Tellez: Oh, cause they were professional nurses. Pantzer: I‟ll tell you a cute little story. We had one black lady. She was good. And she said, “I can come Sunday, but I have to bring my daughter. Will that be all right? I said, “Sure.” So she came Sunday, and she brought along her little daughter—dressed beautifully! Little one of a thing! And she said to the little girl, “Now you sit there on the couch and you read your book, and don‟t you move.” And she went to take care of Katie. Well, I looked at the little girl, and over the book came those big brown eyes. [chuckle] She looked to see what was going on. So I said, “Well, I can‟t leave that kid MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 25 sitting there like this for two hours!” I said, “Would you like to go shopping with me?” She says, “Yes. I‟ll ask my mommy.” I said, “Okay.” Mom said, “Sure.” I said, “Come on.” So we went to HEB [grocery store]. And when we were in HEB, some old lady came along and kept looking—looked at me, looked at the little girl. [The little girl] was as black as the ace of spades. And I said, “That‟s my granddaughter.” [laughter] Pantzer: And she took one look; she didn‟t say “Oh, what a cute girl,” she just looked and walked away. Tellez: Scowled? Pantzer: Yeah! I said to myself, “You go!” You know? Tellez: Good riddance! Pantzer: [chuckle] I found my way to the candy counter. I don‟t know why. I said, “would you like to have some M&Ms?” “Yes, sir!” And of course I had to get the biggest they had, right? Tellez: Yes, sir. Pantzer: And she said, “My mommy only buys me the small one.” I said, “Yes, but I‟m your grandpa!” And I had to get her the big one. And when we came home, she showed them to her mother, and I was hoping she would say, “Grandpa got me this,” but she said, “Mr. Pantzer got this for me.” [laughter] Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: And what did her mother say? Pantzer: Oh, nothing. She came to get [Katie] up in the morning and wash her and dress her. And once she was dressed, like on a Sunday morning, then I could handle her to go to church. I had breakfast ready, and when I couldn‟t dress her or give her a bath, I couldn‟t do that. She was a pretty big woman. Right, Pam? Pam James: Yeah. And you always called her “honey.” Pantzer: I what? Pam James: You always called Aunt Katie “honey.” Pantzer: Yeah. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 26 Tellez: What was your favorite thing about Katie? Pantzer: Well, one thing she always said, “If you can‟t say something nice about somebody, don‟t say anything.” And that was her life. She would never say anything bad about anybody. Tellez: She was very sweet. Pantzer: And many times when I pulled a boner [embarrassing mistake], she would just overlook it. She would forgive and forget. She was a good cook. She was a good housekeeper. Pam James: Yeah. And she raised African violets. Pantzer: Oh, yeah, yeah. Pam James: And a huge garden—beautiful garden Pantzer: She went to Florida. She told me, “Will you take care of the African violets while I‟m gone?” She says, “Make sure you do not put any water on the leaves, or on the flower.” She had a little can. I was in the back room there. I said, “Yeah, I‟ll take care of them.” She said, “I got a few more in the cellar.” So when she went, I went down [in] the cellar. There were 300 of them! She had a light there, and a big table. Well, I took the [inaudible]. Yeah, but she won prizes with them. She was a good gardener. Yeah, she won a lot of blue ribbons with her garden. She had a green thumb. But we had our arguments. We were suppose to go some place, and I was waiting for her in the car. And there she came out with a big hat on like that. [Mr. Pantzer hold his arms out wide above his head.] I said, “What is that!” She said, “That‟s a hat.” I said, “That‟s a hat?” She look up, and she went back into the house. I said, “Well, she‟s changing hats.” But she wouldn‟t come out anymore, so I said, “I better see what‟s going on.” Well, I went in—she never drank, and she didn‟t smoke—and there she‟s sitting with her feet on the cocktail table. She had a bottle of wine, and she [was smoking] a cigarette. [laughter] Pantzer: Yep! And somehow or another the story got to the pastor. And in his sermon he said, “Do anything. But never criticize a woman‟s hat!” [laughter] Pantzer: Yeah. She smoked a cigarette like a monkey. And she had a bottle of wine there. Tellez: Now, was she trying to get back at you, or was she trying to calm down? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 27 Pantzer: No, she was trying to teach me a lesson. Pam James: But you know, most women want flowers or candy, but Uncle Gus would bring a load of manure, horse manure, for Aunt Katie. And that‟s what Aunt Katie wanted, for— Tellez: For her African violets Pam James: Yeah! Pantzer: Yeah. Grandpa had a farm, right? A chicken farm. And we went to visit. And on the way home, I smelled something. I said, “Hey Bob [Gustav and Katie‟s son] are you all right?” She [had] filled up the trunk with chicken manure! [laughter] Tellez: She filled up the what? Pantzer: The trunk of the car Tellez: The whole trunk? She just dumped the chicken manure in there? Pam James: In bags Pantzer: Yeah. Tellez: Yeah, but was it hot outside? I mean, can you imagine? [chuckle] Pantzer: She wanted that for her flowers. [laughter] Pantzer: She didn‟t tell me, because boy it sure gave off an odor, I‟ll tell you. She loved her flowers. Yeah. Tellez: Aw. Okay, Mr. Pantzer, I think we have covered just about everything. And before we complete the interview, is there anything you would like for your children, your grandchildren, and your great-grandchildren to know? Is there anything you would like to say? Pantzer: Well, they know what‟s right and wrong. So do the right thing. Don‟t do the wrong thing. And basically, that‟s what I always taught them. I said, “Remember, the [three] Hs—happiness, honesty, and health. And that‟s it. And know the difference between right and wrong. And by golly, knock wood! They haven‟t done anything— Oh, yes! The boy did something wrong! Oh! Katie took [the train] to the delicatessen store. And Bob was small, right? He wanted a bar of chocolate. Katie said, “No, you MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 4 - 28 can‟t have it.” And when they came home, he had it. So, of course, she had to wait until Daddy comes home. So I said, “Okay, get the chocolate. We‟ll go down to the store—” It was quite a walk “—and you tell them you made a mistake, and you give them the chocolate back.” And you know, that was one of my hardest walks, to do that. The store was full of people. And he walked in and gave it to [them and said], “I made a mistake!” Tellez: Oh! Did he cry? Pantzer: Yeah. And we visited those people in Florida years ago—years ago—and he says, “Gus, we‟ll never forget when you hauled in with Bob [and] that bar of chocolate.” Yeah, yeah. [laugher] Tellez: Okay. Well, Mr. Pantzer, I thank you so much for all of your time. Pantzer: Well, I thank you for coming. Tellez: All right then. END SIDE TWO, TAPE FOUR
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