| Summary: | INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM INTERVIEW WITH: Lila Cockrell INTERVIEI'ffiR: Esther MacMillan DATE: July 25 , 1984 PLACE: Her office: The Atkins Travel Agency 405 N. St. Mary ' s San Antonio , Texas M: Have you got any questions before we start? C: No. M: O.K. You ' re used to this. C: We 'll try. And if that is sufficient. M: Although Mrs. Cockrell has been in the public eye for years now, occupying positions of honor and importance, e.g. Mayor for six years '75 to '81, she is fondly known hereabouts, by everybody, as Lila. The tally of her many community services will easily be found in the newspape r archives in years to come, by future researchers. What interests me is, here is a woman who has survived the slings and arrows of politics unscathed really , a calm serenity which is a marvel, and a wisdom of judg-- ment which has not only served her well but the community, too. Lila, could we have a bit of life history? COCKRELL 2 M: I should like to know what made you this enormously successful woman . Where were you bor n and when? Let ' s start out that way. C: All right . I was born to parents who were residents of San Antonio . My mother was Velma Tompkins , and she married Robert Bruce Banks of San Antonio when he came back from World War I. M: Oh . C: Mother lived with her mother and stepfather , Julia . and Andrew McCampbell on Jennings Avenue in Fort Worth . After attending the old Fort Worth High School on Jennings Avenue, mother attended C. I . A. i n Denton for one year . She had met my father , Robert Bruce Banks, of San Antonio when he was in Fort Worth in training before going overseas to serve in France as a Captain in the infantry in World War I. He and mother were married in 1919. She was 18 years old , and he was 29 . They moved to San Antonio a nd established their home on West Craig in the old BeaconHill/ Laurel Heights a rea. When I was born (January 19, 1922) mother went home ) so that the family doctor , Dr . Tom Rumph , who , with his wife had been next door neighbors and fr i ends of the family fo r years , could take care of mother and baby during the delivery . M: Yes . C: At any rate , that was why I was born in Fort Wort h, and I have never been able to quite say I ' m a nat ive San Antonian . But, at any rate , that was the background COCKRELL C: so far as my parents are concerned. My father died, however, when I was just one and a half. M: Oh. C: He died at a very young age . He was a respected 3 young attorney a nd was in practice here and working for the E . B. Chandler firm. And my uncle, Mr. C. Stanley Banks, Sr., also worked with that firm. After my father's early death, my mother went back to live with her parents with her young baby. So my grandparents played quite a n important role in my li fe . M: Yes. C: My grandmother was very unusual--a very strong and dynamic woman. She had come up, in some ways, the hard way. Her name was Julia McCampbell. "Muddy," as I called her, had originally been Julia Hamilton. She had had an earl i er marriage to Tompkins of Hempstead, Texas. That marriage ended most unusually, in her time, in divorce for what she felt "were good and sufficient reasons." M: Oh. C: At any rate, I point that out because it shows that she had a lot of de termination and strength at a time when it was not very well accepted for a woman to be divorced. She then supported her daughter and young son , who later died, by using their fami ly home as a rooming house or a small hotel to support herself and her children . Later she went into purchasing a Fort Worth apartment house, was very COCKRELL 4 C: prudent and thrifty, and was able to manage her business well. Later, she married Mr. Andrew McCampbell who was in federal government service. And it was to their home on J ennings Avenue in Fort Worth that my mother came to await my birth and then later, after my father's death, returned home. Of course, being in federal government service, my grandfather was subject to being moved around . They moved to New York City, and he was in the Internal Revenue and worked with the prohibition agents. M: Oh. C: And then we moved to Nebraska--Omaha, Nebraska-- where he was chief of all of the prohibition agents in the State of Nebraska. Later, they moved back to New York City where he became the Prohibition Administrator for the State of New York and Puerto Rico during the so-very tumultous days . That, of course, would have been a "hot seat. " He was a very interesting personality and a very strong, honest, and honorable man. He was in a position where he was approached frequently by racketeers with offers or bribes which he firmly declined; he was scrupulously honest and honorable. Those making the offers wanted him to "look the other way" when they brought in illegal shipments of liquor. Obviously, it was a very difficult role to fill and one in which he had occasional threats on his life. The Prohibition Amendment was not very popular in New York. However, he did his duty and certainly tried to support the law and carry out the law. But it was a very COCKRELL 5 C: di ff icult position to be in. My grandmother, meanwhile, was very active in the Temperance Movement. M: Oh? C: And she was not only a strong church leader, but she became very active in the Women's Christian Temperance Union, which was her major outside activity. That took a great deal of her time, interest and ability. platform speaker for temperance. M: Oh, this is so interesting. She became a very strong C: And she was a very interesting personality; a very strong-willed woman. She had a lot of influence on my life because, first of all, she loved me very much, and she always instilled in me the idea that a woman could achieve. M: She did? C: And the fact that she was able, even with a very modest background, to support herself and her children until she remarried. Then she continued to manage some of her own financial affairs. Also, she was a platform speaker for temperance issues, and she was a woman who believed that women could achieve. M: She did. What would be the time peri od on this? C: I was born in 1922, and I would say that she was very active i n my life, really, up until the late Sixties when she passed away. M: That long. C: Yes. My mother was a very lovely and very beatufiul young woman and also, obviously loved me, but her interests COCKRELL 6 C: were in a different direction. She was more interested in church activities and in social contacts and in just being a very nice homemaker . Mother was less interested in political or governmental activities . She was interested in her community, and she was usually was active in the P . T.A . or the church or in a woman ' s guild, activities of that type . Again, she was a very attractive person and made friends easily. But I would say , it would be my grandmother who had the strong interest in politics. A very strongly opinionated lady, you know, and believed in the things she was for. M: Sure. C: So she was very active in that sense. When I was growing up, after my grandfather went back to New York, my mother married again. She married a man by the name of Ovid Winfield Jones, who was from Winston Salem, North Carolina. He was about the same age and the same background, an attorney , as her first husband, my father, Robert Bruce Banks. M: Oh. C: He was a very fine man, a well-educated man, and I had two half- brothers from this marriage . M: Oh, you did. C: Yes. And we lived in a very beautiful community in New York . M: You lived in New York? C: Yes . Mother and I had moved to New York with my grandparents when he became Prohibition Administrator . M: Oh, and you were with your grandparents? COCKRELL 7 C: Yes. And then mother married, and we lived in New York from about the time I was five or six until about the time I was sixteen. We lived in Forest Hills, New York, which is a beautiful community . At that time it was not as densely populated as it is today when it is ringed in with apartments. It was a very beautiful community, and I went to Public School #101. That was a very fine, very progressive school. I can still remember that school extremely well, the principal, Miss Louise Speck, and some of the teachers . And I mention that because I really feel very fortunate to have been exposed to a very high quality of education. I am an extremely fast reader, and I'm sure it resulted f r om the early reading skills I got. We were given the opportunity of having access to music, art, and to many cultural activities. My mother was very interested in seeing that her children were given the opportunity to gain an appreciation of the arts. I remember trips when she took us i nto the Metropolitan Museum of Art. M: Yeah. C: And I remember trips to the Museum of Natural History and all those beautiful and wonderful museums in New York. We belonged, in the summer , to a beach club out on Atlantic Beach on Long Island, the Forest Hills Surf Club, and so I had the fun of summer activities on the beach. Then during the serious depression years , my stepfather was not so well, and I went down and spent my winters in Texas. My grandparents had retired and were living i n Fort Worth again . COCKRELL M: Oh. 8 C: And I went down there and went to school in the winter-time, and stayed with them. And then in the summers, I went back to Forest Hills and was with my parents. M: Were you in high school by this time? C: Yes, in high school. M: In Fort Worth. C: So I graduated from Paschal High School in Fort Worth. M: Oh, you did. C: Uh huh. M: How do you spell that? C: P-A-S-C-H-A-L, Paschal High School, Fort Worth. Actually, the old Paschal High School where I graduated is now a technical school. It's an inner city area and there is a new Paschal High School out farther. At Paschal, I enjoyed a lot of activities. I participated in dramatics and became interested in public speaking and debating. And I was one of the founders of a group called, "The Little Congress," which was a girl's club. M: You were? C: Yes. It resulted from the fact that there was a boy's club called, "The Senate," and there were a number of us girls who really would like to have an opportunity to be in that type of club, but "The Senate" was for boys only. M: That's interesting. C: We formed a club ca l led the "Little Congress," and we had our own organization, and it was to promote public speaking . . COCKRELL 9 M: Really! C: And debate. Yes. M: You sure showed the signs early , didn't you? C: Then when I graduated (I graduated farily young, I had skipped a couple of grades coming up, and I graduated at 16), my parents and my grandmother and I all agreed that it would be good for me to go to a girl's school for a year or two. So I went to Ward-Belmont Junior College in Nashville, Tennessee, and enjoyed it very much. It was what, in those days, was called a girl's "finishing" school. M: Uh huh. It sure was. C: I had thought originally I would go two years , but the second year it seemed better for me to go ahead and move to a senior college. So I transferred to S.M.U. in Dallas. M: Oh , you did? C: And I was there from 1939 to 1942 with a degree in Speech and a mino r in English. I just really loved S.M.U. and felt it was good for me. I enjoyed participating. I was on the debate team; I received awards in public speaking; I was active in a sorority and many campus activities . I was a Vice President of the Student Council for Re ligious Activities and was very active in the Y.W./Y.M.C.A. campus movement-- the student Christian movement on campus . And when I graduated, I was very pleased to receive what they call an "M" award, Mustang Award, for outstanding service to the University. And this was because of bringing back awards to S.M.U. as a result of being a frequent winner in COCKRELL 10 C: speaking , public speaking , debati ng events that I participated in . During the summer between my junior and senior years in college , because of my activi ties with the Student Christian Association , I was able to get a summer job (rather a coveted summer job) out in Estes Park , Col orado , with the Y.M.C.A . camp out there . For the girls, this meant being a waitress or a hou sekeeper , or for t he young men being on the garbage crew or doing many of the chores connected with the camp . M: Sure . C: The system at the " ~yo Conference Center provi ded t hat you would get a job , and you would work about half your time , and the other hal f you wou ld be free to enjoy the beautiful mountain scenery, to participate in summer conferences and seminars . Really , it was a great experience to earn a little , to have a job that wasn ' t too demanding, and to have a wonderful vacati on . M: Sure . C: So the summer of 1941 I went out to Estes Park and en j oyed it very much. While I was there duri ng one conference , I met a young man who has since loomed very large in my l ife . And that was my husband , Sid Cockrell, Jr .--full name , Sidney Earl Cockrell , Jr . He had then completed his college educat i on a t the University of Oklahoma and had been acting as Boy ' s Work Secretary in the Tulsa Y.M. C. A. So he was out attendi ng a summer conference for Boy ' s Work Directors . COCKRELL 11 C: We met and then we dated every night he was there. M: Oh , I bet . C: He was there for a week , and we both, I think, felt we had met somebody really special . And then later, the foll owing June , following my graudation from S.M.U., we were married . M: You were? C: And by that time he had been called to active duty in the Army. We met in the summer of 1941, and in December of that year , of course , was Pearl Harbor. Because he was a reserve officer from the University of Oklahoma , Sid was called to active duty in September of '41, and by the time we married in June, he had reached the level of being a First Lieutenant , so we had sort of a military wedding with the men in their dress white Army uniforms. Then, after our honeymoon, we were stationed at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. M: Ah. C: So that took place in June of 1942, and, as you can see, we have been married very happily for 42 years. M: Well, that's a good record these days, isn't it? C: Yes, it really is. M: Didn ' t you go on into the--you had some military service, I remember. C: Yes, I did . We we re together for about a year. We were at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, until the l ate Spring of 1943. Sid was then transferred with his unit (which was the 70th Field Artillery Battalion) to Fort Jackson , South Carolina. We went to Columbia, South Carolina, and were there a couple COCKRELL 12 C: of months . Then his entire unit was sent overseas. Of course, when he le f t we didn't know where his unit was being sent with secret orders. I returned home and by then my family was living in Kansas City, Missouri . My dad--I have not mentioned what his position was--he was also in government service. M: Oh, was he? C: In New York City, when they lived there , he had been Judge of Revocation Hearings after prohibition was repealed and alcoholic sales were permitted with strict limitations. In the Treasury Department, he was the hearing judge where persons had violated their permits. For example, if they had a permit to sell beer and sold higher l evel alcoholic beverages, that would cause a r evocation of permit. So he was a judge in that kind of a hearing. M: Oh, I see. He was your father--not your grandfather? C: This was my step-father, yes . And then when they moved to Kansas City, he was the Regional Attorney in charge of the Alcohol Tax Unit in that particular region. So I went back to Kansas City, where the family was living at that time; Mother, Dad, and my two brothers (younger half-brothers) were there , and they were still school boys . After Sid went overseas and I returned home, I decided to e nter the service myself. I guess World War II differed from some of the later wars because it really involved the total population. Eve ryone. M: Yeah. C: felt they needed to be a part of the national defense effort in some way . I volunteered for active duty with the COCKRELL C: Waves and was accepted. I was then just barely 21. My mother was told that when I was accepted , I was the youngest person accepted as an officer in the Waves. M: You were? C: Yes. I went to the Wave Officer Training School at 13 Smith College in Northhampton , Massachusetts, where I was stationed for two months--entering as an Apprentice Seaman and being promoted after four weeks as a Midshipman and then four more weeks to an Ensign. M: Were you in the first class? C: No. I entered the Officer Training School in August , 1943, and the first class was about six months earlier than that, so I was in one of the early classes, but it was not the first class . M: My best friend was in the first class. C: So then after graduating (I graduated in November of 194 3) from Midshipman School, I was sent to Washington, D.C., and was stationed in the Bureau of Ships as a training and education officer for enlisted personnel in the Bureau of Ships. I commanded a Wave company and was very proud of getting an award after about a year there. The award was for being the commanding officer of the "Best Commanded and Performed Company in the Bureau of Ships Regiment of Waves." So that was kind of fun . M: I should say so. C: Sid, meanwhile , went overseas with his unit, the 70th Field Artillery Battalion, and having participated in field COCKRELL 14 C: marches all summer in South Carolina in the early summer of '43, out on the hot, hot deserts near Columbia, South Carolina--they went immediately to Boston, Massachusetts , they were given arctic gear, and they were sent to Iceland. M: (laughter) C: (laughter) We had assumed that he was being trained for North Africa desert warfare but instead he found himself with his unit in Iceland. After he had been there a few months, a very interesting thing happened to present Sid with and unusual opportunity. The Commanding General of the Ice land based company was William S. Key who had been very active in Oklahoma politics . He had been a former Lieutenant Governor of the state, and he was a National Guard General. When it came time for him to choose a new aide, he always liked to choose an Oklahoma young man out of loyalty to his state, he scouted for someone on the base who was from Oklahoma. Sid was one of the available young officers and was interviewed and then selected for General 's Aide by the Commanding General of the Iceland based command. So he was detached from his old unit . M: Oh ! C: and his unit then went on to France and ended up fighting in the Battle of the Bulge and in some other major engagements . Sid r emained in Iceland and was General's Aide for several years and then, when it came time to rotate aides again , he first became the Headquarters Commandant and then l ater COCKRELL 15 C: assumed a position that he liked very much--that of Base Special Services Officer . Sid was in charge of all of the entertainment for the troops that came in and also promoting all the special morale type activities for the troops . In addition t o the entertainers who came to Iceland , they published a newspaper which was called, "The White Falcon, " and they had sporting events. In Iceland , one of the very serious problems they encountered was that most American boys were not used to the extremes in the wintertime when there was very little daylight-- just a few hours of daylight in the middle of the day and the balance was as dark as night. M: Uh huh. C: And particularly for some of the men that were stationed in lonely outposts, depression set in and suicide was quite a serious problem. And so, the role of the Base Special Service Officer . M: Yes . You can see it. C: so that all the morale building activities were much more important in that particular location than in many others . M: Yes . C: In the summer, of course , just the reverse was true; it was daylight most of the time . M: Yes. C: And there were just a few hours of darkness, say from about midnight to 4 : 00 A.M . or s omething like that. M: Difficult to sleep. C: They had to get used to very different conditions . COCKRELL 16 M: Sure . Was there a big contingent there? Did they C: Iceland was extremely important in that it was a stopping- off place for many aircraft or convoys enroute to Europe , but the weather stations there were . M: Oh . C: very, very stragetic because the weather that would come through I celand woul d be on the way to the Continent . They could predict what the weather would be two or three days down the road on the Cont inent . And , as they were planning strategy f or invasions or strategic bombing flights , things like that , the strategic locations of Iceland became very , very important. M: So that ' s why it was important? C: Yes . M: I sn ' t that interesting? C: Meanwhile , after graduating from the Officer Training Class in November 1943, I was then stationed at the Bureau of Ships , Washington , D. C. Sid and Maj . Gen . William S . Key had to corne back from Iceland to the States the Spring of 1944 for some conferences in Washington and then , Boston (at the Boston Navy Yard) , about wartime shipments to Iceland , so I was , of course , very thrilled one. M: Yes ! C: evening . I was rooming at that time with a young lady from Denver , Colorado , another Wave officer , whose name was Mary Griffith. She was an attorney , and we were good friends . COCKRELL 17 C: I was out at a church activity, servi ng as a chaperone/sponsor for a young people's outing, when I got a call from Mary who said , "Come home right away ! Something's happening here !" M: Oh . C: And so-- I came home and found my husband! And , of course , was just thrilled to death . M: Oh, surprise. Oh , of course! C: He and General Key were to be in town for about 30 days. M: Oh boy . Isn 't that wonderful ! C: And so that was just wonderful . M: Sure , i t was. C: And af t er he went back to Iceland in due time we learned that we were expecting . And I was very excited , of course. This was to be our first child. M: Yes . C: So in just a few more weeks, then , I resigned my commission whi ch was the standard procedure in those days. M: Was it? C: Because it was not possible for you to remain in the service if you had a child , a young child. M: What was your rank when you were . C: I was an Ensign . M: You were an Ensign? C: Yes . Uh huh. I had not rea lly been in l ong enough to get promoted to Lieutenant, J.G ., which would be the next higher r ank. I was on active duty in Washington for about COCKRELL 18 C: a year prior to my resignation, and at the appropriate time I resigned and went home. My parents were still living in Kansas City . M: Kansas City. C: Our daughter, Carol, was born in the St. Francis Hospital in Kansas City. M: Oh. C: And Sid got to come home . . M: Did he? C: Yes, he got leave just about the time of the birth. M: He did? C: So, in fact, he got home just after, just shortly after, a few days after she had been born. It was difficult to predict exactly when she was-- she arrived a little bit earlier than our anticipations M: Such a beautiful girl . C: So he got to come home on military leave to see her. From there, let's see Sid, of course , had to return to Iceland. I stayed in Kansas City with our baby at my parents home waiting out the war. There were a number of young women that I knew who were in exactly the same situation M: Oh , were they? C: In Kansas City . M: What year was Carol born? Nineteen forty . C: She was born--forty-five. She was born January 25th, 1945. M: Uh huh. COCKRELL 19 C: And all that fall, the fall of '44, I had many friends there either waiting for babies or with young babies, that were home with their parents because just about everybody we knew that was in our age group was in the military. M: Yeah. C: And he was given an opportunity to stay on in the regular service if he wished to, and we were flattered at the offer, but he and I discussed it, and we both felt we would like t o return t o c i v ilian l ife. We both en j oyed a lot of things that we felt were community activities that perhaps we would have a better chance of pursuing as civilians rather than military. So he was given his orders to go on inactive duty, and he remained for a while in the reserve and finally moved to the retired reserve. at the present time. So that is sort of his status M: Where did you go? Did you come back to San Antonio? C: Sid's home had been in Tulsa, so we went back to Tulsa first. And he assumed his old position--there was a sort of tradition about going back, and your position was supposedly there available for you . M: Uh huh. Yes, I remember that. C: So he went back and was given a position at the Tulsa Y.M.C.A. After having been back for some six months or so, Sid decided to look around for something that would offer him a little broader opportunity . And , so we moved to Louisville, Kentucky, where he became t he Kentucky Director for the National Conference of Christians and Jews, another COCKRELL 20 c: community type agency . M: Yes. C: Really, most of Sid's adult years were spent in an organizational type work--usually for a nonprofit organization where he assumed varying roles, such as Executive Director or State Director, or something. M: Oh. C: We were in Louisville for about a year--and Louisville was a very beautiful city . Our daughter, Carol, was a young child at that time, and we had not yet had our second baby. I remember particularly that it was in Louisville where I first became active in the League of Women Voters. M: Ah ha! C: I enjoyed that very much . And one rather humorous thing, with my love for debating, I got very interested in one of the League's program agenda items which was to work for a new Constitution for the State of Kentucky. So I had been resident all of three or four months , and I was out on a stump telling the citizens why Kentucky needed a new Constitution. M: (laughter) C: So I got invited to be the representative of the Leag pe on a televised--no, excuse me--a radio debate, and found that my colleague was the Attorney General of the State. Two very prominent lawyers were on the other side , and I was there as the representative of the League of Women Voters. I was scared to death someone was going to ask me how long COCKRELL 21 C: I had lived in the state. ( laughter) M: Yeah. ( laughter) C: Because it probably wouldn't have gone over all that well for a brand new person to come in and tell those Kentucky citizens that they needed a new Constitution. M: No. C: But, anyway it was kind of fun, and I enjoyed it. And I felt it was a very worthy cause. M: That was kind of really your first step into politics, you think? Sort of a . C: Well, actually, I'll have to say I guess I stepped in at five or sometime around then, because my grandparents were always so heavily involved and had very strong opinions about races, that it always rubbed off on me. So I remember organizing a parade or somethin~ when I was five / in honor of one of the Presidential candidates. M: ( laughter) No kidding! C: And everybody was outfitted with flags , and we marched around with signs in the neighborhood. M: Good heavens! C: I was five or six or seven--right around in there-I say five; it just--I was just a little child really. M: ( laughter) How cute! C: However, most of the other parents in the neighborhood were for a different presidential candidate. So, one by one the parade members were snatched out and COCKRELL 22 c: taken horne by their mothers . ( laughter) M: (laughter) Oh dear. I think that's darling! Did they get a new Constitution in . C: Not by the time I left; they were still working on it . M: They were working on it--like we need one here . C: And, so then we had a brief sojourn back to New York City when Sid went there as Assistant to the President of the National Conference of Christians and Jews. M: Oh! C: And then we wanted very much to get back to the southwest , and we both loved Texas , so he was able to corne back and become Assistant Regional Director in Dallas . M: Of the Christians and C: Of the National Conference of Christi ans and Jews. Right. So we lived in Dallas then for some years and our second daughter , Cathy , was born in Dallas . M: Oh. C: She was born in 1948, July 12th , 1948 . And we enjoyed Dallas , and I had fun getting reunited with my college friends from S . M.U . M: Oh, of course; that's right . C: We remained in Dallas until 1956 , and then Sid had a very nice opportunity to inverview for the position of Executive Director of the Bexar County Medical Society of San Antonio. And since my family had been from San Antonio, and I still had relatives here, I was very COCKRELL 23 c: interested and attracted to the offer, too. So we came down one Fall day in 1955 and while Sid was interviewing, I visited with my Uncle Stanley Banks. After the interview, we had our two lit tle girls with us, and we walked along the river and I just fell in l ove with San Antonio . So we knew that several people were being interviewed for the position, but when we got home, Sid got a call that he had been chosen and was offered this position. So we moved here--Sid came down first in January of '56 (we had been here in late December of '55 to do the interviewing). I stayed behind a little while because we had to put our house onfue market and attend to all the details of a move. M: All those things. Yeah, that's what women have to do C: So then we moved here--probably about February of '56. M: Of ' 56 . And then, when did you start getting involved in San Antonio? C: Well, in Dallas I had continued my League of Women voters activities, and I became the President of the Dallas League of Women Voters . And I was President there from 1953 to 1955. And also I was very active in the American Red Cross. M: Oh, were you? C: I headed the Residential Fund Campaign. And I participated in the World Affairs Council and several other activities . When we moved to San Antonio our little girls were in elementary school, and I resolved COCKRELL 24 C: --I remember making a very firm resolve to stay home and mind my own business . M: (laughter) C: And learn to sew and (laughter) do a few things . M: All those good things. C: However, first thing when I got down here I ran into some friends I had met at the state convention of the League of Women Voters , such as Florence Passmore and some other ladies who had been active in the League. M: Oh. C: Elsie Sexauer and others , and the first thing you know I was getting my toes wet in the League of Women Voters again. M: Vh huh. C: So , by 1959 I was e l ected President of the San Antonio League of Women Voters. M: Cream will rise to the top, won ' t it? C: (laughter) And the same year I was also elected President of the P . T.A. of Horace Mann School. So, one year I served two years overlapping, in both of those jobs. And then I continued with the League . I was elected for a second term from ' 61 to '63. We were active in our church . We lived in the Jefferson neighboorhood in the city. We lived on West Summit , 2155 West Summit, and later at 303 Mary Louise Drive . Our girls went from Woodlawn El ementary into Horace Mann Junior High and eventually on to Jefferson High School. We enjoyed our community. We were active in the Grace Community COCKRELL 25 C: Presbyterian Church in that area. I held some positions among the women of the church, was a Sunday school teacher, and at one point had Major Kuykendall and Mrs. Kuykendall as students in my Sunday school class. M: Oh , did you? C: Yes, I recall that. I was approached in January of 1963 , at about the time my second term as League President was coming to a close, to become a candidate for City Council M: You were? C: by the old Good Government League ticket. And, of course, Walter McAllister was Mayor. He came on the Council in '61 and was on from '61 to '71. After just a few months as a Council member he was made Mayor. The Mayor , then , was elected by the City Council. M: By the City Council. C: So Mayor McAllister headed a delegation, two carloads of gentlemen , who came to calIon me and officially asked me to become a candidate. M: They did? C: Yes, and I was the first woman candidate sponsored on the G.G.L . ticket. The G.G.L. was organized in about 1955 or 1956. As background, Council Manager Government had been approved by the voters , and the first City Council appeared to lack stability and was regarded as tempestuous --and they felt that to have some kind of stability and COCKRELL 26 C: to try and make Council Manager Government work, it would be necessary to have a Citizen Support Group such as the Good Government League that would sponsor candidates. So they had had all male tickets . M: Sure. C: up until that t ime. And I really attribute, in part, my being asked, to the unsuccessful candidacy of another woman. M: Oh? C: Because Wanda Ford, you may remember . M: My goodness, yes! C: ran for Council in about 1961 and ran a good race but was defeated . However I think she got the attention of the Good Government League as to the need for them to put a woman on the t icket . M: Did she run independently or was she . . C: Yes, she ran independently. M: Oh, I thought so. C: So then I was approached and sponsored as the first women candidate. M: Did you have to do a lot of deep thinking before you accepted? Was this an awfully scary thing? C: It was --in the f irst place it was very att ractive to me because I had worked in the League of Women voters . M: Was it? C: and was very interested in City issues, City Government issues. M: Yes . COCKRELL 27 C: However, it also h ad to involve my entire family. And so I talked it over with my husband and our t wo daughters , who were in school at that time. I believe one was in junior high and one was at Jefferson. At any rate , we all sort of talked it over as a family and decided that. . Yes, Mother would do this. My daughters were the most conservative M: Were they? C: even more so than my husband. And the main reason, and I think anyone who has teenage children will understand when I say, "Nobody elses' Mother had ever done that b efore . " M: Yes. C: And that was something to consider. So we went into it and I guess I took to it like a duck takes to water or something . M: (laughter) You must have. C: because I really enjoyed. First I started out relating to issues that I had more background in. For example, I was interested in supporting parks, libraries, things of that type. It took a lot of self education and working with people to master the intricacies of the city budget because in my household experience, I was, you know, really not familiar with budgets of that size, nor had I had any direct business experience. Although I had a college degree, it was in the liberal arts field, not i n business. COCKRELL M: Sure. C: so it took a lot of effort and learning to really understand the city budget; to understand all of the business side which I felt I must learn. 28 And then my issues broadened. I remember in the middle of the 1960's to the latter part of the 1960's getting very interested in the Model cities Legislation and being sure that San Antonio--I became sort of the prod on the City Council to be sure that we participated in Model Cities. I took some controversial stands in one of the controversial issues in the early to mid 1960's with Public Housing . And I supported it very strongly. M: Did you? C: because I felt that it was needed--that there were persons in our society who simply were "falling through the cracks," and would not have access to decent housing unless there was a Public Housing opportunity. M: And you had opposition to this, eh? C: There were split votes on the Council: 5 to 4. M: Really? C: Yes, it was a very tight issue . M: It was? C: And we just barely maintained a majority to see that the City continued participating in Public Hous ing . M: There is not that feeling now, is there? C: No. No. M: But you were pioneering. COCKRELL 29 C: That was a very controversial issue at that particular time. M: Was it? Oh. C: During those years in the Sixties, of course, one of the things that we participated in strongly was planning for Hemisfair in 1968. M: Oh, yes. C: And from the City's side of it, we had to get ready through a large bond issue to build the convention faci lities. First of all, working through Urban Renewal to acquire the land for the Fair, to build the major Convention Center, and then also to build the Tower of the Americas. Those were all parts of the City's role. Also , another separate Urban Renewal Project was the extension of the San Antonio River f r om the area near Casa Rio Restaurant into the Convention Center area. That was an extension of the River Bend area. And I recall being on the barge along with Congressman Henry B. Gonzalez in the late Fall of 1967 when that river extension was opened prior to HemisFair. There were many exci ting things in those days getting ready for Hemis fair . M: Oh! Mayor Walter McAllister was Mayor , wasn't he? C: Yes, from '61 to '71. M: Ten years . C: John Gatti was Mayor Pro-Tem until 1969 and at that point, John left the City Council to devote his time to COCKRELL C: his private business. And I was elected Mayor Pro- Tern by the Council in '69. M: Oh, were you? C: Yes. M: I'd forgotten that . C: Right . 30 M: And, at that time, it was not a rotating office. It was a fixed permanent office. M: So you were in office . . C: And I was the Mayor Pro-Tem. M: Right in there, you had a lot of help from Governor John Connally with state government participation? C: Yes, John Connally was dedicated to putting on this HemisFair. M: I remember he was. C: And he got very, very involved with, and helped to secure/ the State participation. There were a number of little political fights in the background that I tried to stay out of. They were just intra- mural things, different personalities and so forth . There were a number of issues that came up that I did get involved somewhat with: Issues over the historic houses on the HemisFair Plaza grounds . M: Oh, that . C: That was a big controversy. M: I remember that . C: There just--a number of different things that came up. M: Oh, it was such a dear World's Fair, I l oved it so COCKRELL 31 M: dearly. I was so sorry it didn't do better. C: Well, really it was, all in all, a success. It was not just a total success in the fact that it ended up with some deficit and less attendance than orig inally projected. M: Yes. C: But I think that, for San Antonio to have been able to put it on, to be able to come together , the business community being able to finance it, was quite an achievement. Because , considering the size of our city, considering the financial base of the city, END OF TAPE I Side 1 45 minutes BEGINNING OF TAPE I Side 2 C: it was really quite impressive for San Antonio to have been able to put it on . M: It really was. C: It ended up with a debt of something over 5 million dollars, and this was cleared through the business community for the most part. Local government had some involvement to the tune of maybe 1 to 2 million in some contracts and things that it had to assume on the HemisFair grounds. M: Uh huh. COCKRELL C: Most of the debt was underwritten by the local business community. M: I know it . C: And, while perhaps there were some who were disappointed, most of the people felt that it was an investment in the future of the City. M: Well, and it's proven true. C: And it really has been; yes, that's correct. M: Look how we've leaped forward since then; since HemisFair . C: Yes. Yes. M: I'd like to go back a second. When you ran the first time for City Council, what kind of oppos ition did you have? C: It was really token because at that time . M: Was it? C: the Good Government League was indisputably in control of City Hall. M: Oh . 32 C: So when you got an invitation, at least in 1963 when I ran first, it was just almost tantamount to being elected. M: Oh , it was; that's right. C: And then in 1965, the Good Government League added the first black person to the ticket and this was the Rev. S. H. James , and he was e l ected. Our group was all elected again. In 1967, came the first serious challenge to the G.G.L. and that was the year that Pete Torres was elected COCKRELL 33 C: to the Council. M: Oh, yes . C: He defeated one of the persons on the G.G.L. ticket and was elected . And then in 1969, I believe it was, a second independent was elected. That was Dr. D. Ford Niel son. So that made two independents who were elected. M: Uh huh. C: I retired from the Council in 1970 and Carol Haberman came on as my replacement. And so I went back to private life. I had then served about as long , in fact , a little longer, than persons ordinarily served on the City Council at that time. The policy of the Good Government League was that you 'd come on the Council for two or three terms and then you'd rotate off it. Somebody else came on . M: Oh, you did. C: So it was not thought of as a career . It was that you would fill your civic obligations. If you were "tapped," you might say you would serve for a time--that was the concept toward it at that time. M: Oh , I see. When you retired, were you asked--were you forced to retire? C: No, I voluntarily retired. But I felt that I had gone as far as I could. I would say it was just kind of an understanding that most people did not serve more than two or three terms at that time. Mayor McAllister was a real exception. M: He was. COCKRELL 34 c: I had been e lected in '63 and was re-elected in '65, ' 67, so I had served four terms. M: Yes. C: Then I decided I wanted to do something else for a while so I took a position as the Coordinator of Volunteer Services at the San Antonio State Chest Hospital. M: I remember that. C: And I worked for several years. And in 1971, John Gatti, who had been Mayor Pro-Tern prior to '69, was the G.G. L . candidate for Mayor when Walter McAllister retired M: Yeah. C: after ten years as Mayor. John Gatti was elected and won all the seats back so there were no inde pendents on the '71 ticket. M: Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. C: Yes . But that was just kind of a fluke, I think, because , I think deep-seated opinions were changing; the Good Government League had come in as a reform group with young aggressive people back in 1955, trying to build "Good Government" into the scene. M: Sure. C: But the community was changing; broader groups of citizens wanted to participate; they perceived the G.G.L. as not being as broad-based as they would like , and with their not having as much access to it as they would like. And times change. The G.G.L. then began to lose strength in terms of its real power in the community. COCKRELL 35 M: Yes, yes. c: After the '71-'73 term of Mayor Gatti, he received a business offer to move to Houston and he did not run for re-election. In the '73 Council, I was invited to come back on as a candidate for Council again. And after thinking it over, I decided I real ly did enjoy it and I would come back. M: Who asked you back? C: The Good Government League. M: They still were effective in that period? C: Yes . So in the '73 Campaign, the Good Government League decided it was time to field a Mexican-American candidate for Hayor . And they selected Roy Barr e ra to head the ticket. They put this ticket together and one of the persons who had originally been elected on the Good Government League ticket, Charles Becker , was angry at not being asked to be the Mayoral candidate. So he decided to run as an independent. There were t,vo or three former G.G.L. Council members who bolted the G.G.L. and went over to him politically. M: Oh, they did? C: Yes . M: You didn't, did you? C: No. Alvin Padilla was one and Leo Nendoza was another . So they bolted and ran with Charles Becker. At any rate, when the dust had settled from the election M: Oh! What about that? COCKRELL 36 C: the G.G.L. had technically won 5 places, but Charles Becker had defeated the G.G.L. 's Mayoral candidate. And then he proceeded to get elected Mayor of the new Council. M: Yes. C: So he was Mayor from 1973 to 1975. And then during that period, the Good Government League was beginning to be less effective. And in 1975 or in the Fall of 1974, there was sort of a split among G.G.L. people as to who they were going to back in the next Spring's race. Charles Becker, obviously, was not G.G.L., so they would have to come up with a new candidate. And the three persons under consideration were John Steen, who was then the President of the G.G.L., Dr. Jos~ San Martin, who was a long and respected G.G.L. leader, and myself. And after consideration, they decided to back me as the Mayoral candidate. So in the Spring of '75, I ran. But the Good Government League was not quite as strong as it had been, and there was some opposition at that time to running a woman as a Mayoral candidate. M: Sure. C: So I had about nine opponents, including several viable candidates. Mayor Becker did not run again for re-election at that time. My strongest opponents were Mr. John Monfrey, who was a beer distributor, and a grocer, Mr. Eloy Centeno M: Yes, that's right. C: and then along with a group of assorted other candidates who were not as well known or as well financed as those COCKRELL 37 C: leaders. M: Dh huh. C: After that first election, I was a strong leader but I did not have a majority, so there had to be a run-off. I was in the run- off against John Monfrey, and then was elected. M: Yes. C: When it came time for re-election in '77, the voters of the city had, in February, approved the districting plan. So we were moving to a Council not of nine persons, but of eleven persons. M: That's right. C: And the Mayor was the only one to be elected city-wide. M: Oh. C: At that time I had John Monfrey back as an opponent and I had Dr. Jose San Martin who still wanted to try to make a race; and both those gentlemen ran as independents. I was in the run-off again with John Monfrey and was elected. M: Independents. But you won three times; the point is you won three times. C: Yes, in the las t election, I won without a run-off. The first two Mayoral elections, I had a run-off; but in the last one--the last one, my major opponent was former Mayor Charles Becker. M: He ran again. He came back as a candidate? C: Yes, he did. M: I had forgotten about that. And he got licked. (laughter) I remember. Was there any . COCKRELL 38 c: So in the '77 election, I was in the run-off again with John Monf rey. M: He tried it twice? And Becker tried it twice? C: Becker did not try it earlier, he just tried it one time. And that's the time I won without a run-off in '79. M: Did--all this time, and this is pretty big stuff for anybody--did you maintain this marvelous calm you've got? Did it rattle you at all to be at this high-level? C: I found it very challenging and, I guess, I had paved the way through activities with the League of Women Voters, with community organizations, with debating, so that I felt comfortable in being able to speak, assimilate facts. M: Yes. You did. C: I really enjoyed debating as much as anything in my background by way of preparation, because it helps you learn to marshall and organize facts to get the important "meat" of the thing. M: Yeah. C: And that was very, very helpful. I felt that I tried to grow all the way through my public service. For example, when I started at the City Council, my range of issues was limited to a certain extent. And I kept trying to grow and understand all of the new issues; to learn the parts of government that I did not know. For one thing, I was not afraid to openly admit if there was an area that I was not as familiar with; in other words, I did not have some kind of a "macho" that said I had to know everything COCKRELL C: about everything, you know. M: Know everything, sure. C: So when I needed help, I was very free and open about asking for it. 39 I tried to maintain a very good communication with citizen organizations. M: You did that. You certainly did . C: And first of all, I would try to listen and learn. And when they came to express their point of view, instead of just immediately telling them what I was going to do, I would try to listen and get a full understanding of their position--their perspective--then see if there was a way that government could legitimately respond to what they needed or wanted . You can't always say, "Yes. " But at least you can listen and if you are not able to help, maybe you can think of a way that they can come away, you know , with some type of encouragement or some road ahead that they can follow. M: I think that was one of your greatest succes ses; watching you as another woman; terribly active in the community. But the thing that I just never could get over was your calm serenity. Is that a spiritual thing, basically? C: Oh yes. It really is. I just have a deep and abiding faith in God and I believe that--I believe very strongly in a verse of scripture that in effect says, "I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens COCKRELL C: me. " M : Yes. 40 C: And I feel if you are a person who trusts God and if you proceedi feeling that you are within the will of God in what you are doing that you can also gain strength from the fact that He will give you the strength you need to do the task you have been asked to do. M: If it's right. C: If it's right for you and if it is truly something that is within the will of God. Now that is not to say I feel that I would always make absolutely the right decisions. I make errors; I make errors like everybody else. M: Sure. C: But at least, over all, I know that I am not in this to seek something personal for myself; that I am not just trying to promote myself . But I love the community; I am in here to try to serve the community. 11: Ah, yes. Absolutely . C: It goes without saying that I did not ever accept any bribe, grants, anything like that that was an underhanded thing. M: Of course, you didn't. C: I was always very scrupulous about my dealings with people. And, as a public official, you know you may not do everything exactly right, but at least if you fee l very comfortable that you have, number one, given the job your very best . . COCKRELL 41 M: Absolutely. C: and you have done it in good conscience and in good faith, and that you know you can feel God's love for you, that's sort of the basis for being able to be serene . M: To me, it is a quality that is--I just--it's so admirable in my eyes, that serenity, that calmness , and that you seem to be able to draw on some deep well of wisdom . Of course, when you 're --I've been terribly interested in San Antonio and the politics and what goes on, and you manage so well. And I hate to bring up the fact about "a woman" because I think this is ridiculous . We're human beings. But in this macho town, you must have had some resentment. "That's just a woman--she doesn 't know anything~ You sailed through that without . you may have some scars, but they aren't evident to t he outsider. C: Well, I guess that I have several qualities that maybe I should speak of. In the first place, I have a pretty good sense of humor . It doesn't always show, but I think while I want to do well, I want to achieve, I also have some sense of humor about peoples' attitudes, so some things that could have been tragic struck me as somewhat funny . M: Uh huh. C: So they really didn't hurt me that much . M: No . C: They would roll off. Cockrell 42 M: You're a very feminine person, too. c : Then I care about people and if you try to be under-standing of people, you can understand even their prejudices. You know, you understand that they think these things, the way they do, based out of their own experience. They're doing the best they can, too. M: Sure. C: But they grew up in a different era, a different set of ideas, and it's been amazing to me how quickly people have been able to change the ir ideas, particularly in the f ields of minorities and women. M: Really? c: Yes. M: You do see it? c: Well, because for example, I think back to the time I was in college and I was extremely interested in race relations . M: Were you? C: And one of my papers that I did, I had almost a second major in education; I was going to be a teacher. One of my term papers was to do a study on white teachers and black teachers. I think then the terminology was "negro" teachers, rather than "black," which came into use later. M: Sure. C: But in a research project I did in the Dallas Public Schools, for example , I turned up the information, based it right on the statistics, that white teachers were paid COCKRELL 43 C: about twice as much as black teachers with a comparable background in terms of educational background and doing comparable work. There was that kind of discrimination in the economic marketplace. Segregated schools were then in force. M: That's true. C: And, as I point out in that paper , the concept of separate but equal facilities was correct only in so far as the separate part of it. Because they were certainly not equal in terms of the capital allocation for the schools or in t erms of the salary structure; the operating figures. Now , of course, all of that has been done away with; we ' ve put that era behind us. M: But you were cognizant of that C: But I was very much interested in it and attuned to it, when I was in school. So, you know, we get impatient if things don't happen in two or three years . M: Yes. C: But you can l ook back and see changes that have occurred from that point, which was in the early 1940's; and you can see then that when I first came on the Council in the 1960's--in 1963--one of the things we were working on doing in San Antonio was desegrating the privately owned/publically used facilities . For example, hotels and restaurants were, even in the early 1960's , still segregated. M: Were they? C: And so we came in with a program. And Mayor McAllister COCKRELL 44 C: I will credit for leadership for that program . And Mr. Jim Gaines, who was a community leader at the time, headed this--it was a volunteer committee--but they got enough community "muscle", in terms of strong community leaders , to be on it that they made it socially, politically, and in the business sense , acceptable to be on the "right" side of desegregation. M: That's an interesting way to put it. C: Motels, for example, might have feared that they would lose business if they desegregated, could say, "Oh, I'm working with our committee ." You know, "All the civic leadership is behind us." Or restaurants would not fear that they would be ostracized or lose business if they moved into desegregation. M: Ah! Sure. C: And it was done in a very short period of time. But you can see, you know , when you look back and think that segregation '-las still a part of San Antonio as recently as of about twenty years ago . And in terms of opportunities for women, I could see , when I first came on as a Council woman, there were practically no women on City Boards; just a token woman here and there. And so one of the things I did was to try to get many more women, and the broadening out to minorities, appointed to City Boards. M: Oh, you did that? C: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And if you will look at the makeup today, of course, with the changes in attitudes in the community as a whole COCKRELL 45 C: with the makeup of the Council, most of the Boards are very well balanced. M: Yes, they are. C: Unless there is some Board that requires specific technical or professional experience and where it is not always possible to find the correct balance that you would like to have. M: Yes. Well, this is a touchy question. You don't even have to answer it if you don 't want to. But the city is becoming more and more , what? Hispanic. I never know what word to use. We have an Hispanic Mayor , we have had an Hispanic Judge of the Commissioner's Court, we have them more and more on the Council. Do you--it is a natural outgrowth, of course, we all knew this was going to happen--do you think it's for the best? C: Well, our city has been one that has been culturally diverse from its very inception, and I think there were periods in our very earliest history when, perhaps, the majority was on the Hispanic side, you know , in an earlier era . And we have had periods in our time when certain national groups, such as Germans or others, were the most dominant in terms of civic activity. I think it is right and proper that, as the population in a community changes, in terms of balance of population, that the ethnic makeup of the community be represented in the civic and political leadership of that community. I think that is extremely important . I COCKRELL c: think it's the only way that the community will continue to be v iable. 46 M: Do you? C: Because if you have a changing ethnic makeup in a city, but you have gates that are shut, where only a portion of the community can really rise to positions of l eadership, you have a situation that is an unhealthy situation. M: Uh huh. C: And I think that having the d istricting plan on City Council has relieved a lot of tensions. The districting plan , having each sector of the city have a representative at the Council level, I think has been very, very helpful. While, perhaps, residents in one part of the city will not always be pleased with the positions of some Council member in another part of the city, it is still good and healthy tha t all those positions are able to be voiced at City Hall and not fought out somewhere on the streets or something. Because the City Hall is the place where people sit around the table, they look at the problems realistically, and they have to work out acceptable solutions. I think it is extremely important that the leadership reflects the community. M: You do? C: Yes, I do. M: That's interesting. The thing is, what you hear so much is that the expertise these people have not had, I mean the minority, (they are not a minority anymore) COCKRELL 47 M: the minority folks coming in now, have not had the background of years and years of experience. So. I'm not putting this well. C: Let me say this: I think that every ethnic, cultural group has within it, leadership and persons who are respected as l eaders in their communities and it is good for the city as a whole, that we are moving very quickly in terms of getting a more in-depth leadership in all sectors of the city . This has come through community based groups, through neighborhood organizations, civic groups of all kinds, where people get the actual experience of working in their communities first and then become candidates for City Councilor higher public office . M: So you feel very positive about this, don't you? C: Oh, yes . Yes, I do. Let's take for example, Mayor Henry Cisneros. Persons mayor may not agree with every political decision that he makes, but never-the- Iess, I think people will see that here is a young man who is an educated person, who is very brilliant in many of his concepts and implementations, has a very strong leadership role, and is a premier example of a rising young group of leaders that are coming up in our community . M: I think that that's true, because this is such a dear city and we want it to be just as perfect as possible. It is such a wonderful place to be and you've certainly p layed a major part. You ought to feel good about it. COCKRELL 48 C: Well, let me say this: There will be times when individual minority politicians or civic leaders may not be as wide l y respected as Mayor Cisneros is, but this is true of every ethnic group . I f we look back at a time when, let's say, when the Anglo group was always in the leadership, there certainly were Anglo Mayors that were not as widely respected as other Mayors. M: That's true . C: Every ethnic group will have some strong leaders and some that are either weak leaders or not as qualified or whatever. M: Sure. C: And so I think it is too much to expect that in a time of changing leade rship roles that every leader from a minority group background will be perfect . M: No . That's true. C: if we have not had perfection from what was then the majority group. M: No. That's true. You know that there are so many people that don't realize, in studying the history o f San Antonio , that there was a very strong period in San Ant onio history when the Germans were predominant C: Right. M: in every phase of life. C: Yes. M: We think of it as only the Mexican, Spanish influence, but I keep reminding people that we had the German influence here for quite a while and they did a lot of COCKRELL M: good things, too. So, it isn't just the C: And then, of course , way back, the early Canary Islanders had a period of activity . 49 M: Yes, it 's a fascinating history of this city . Can you think of anything else you would like on this tape that we haven't talked about? It's awfully good. C: Well, the thing that I would like to wind up with is that while I am now retired , after having put in some fifteen years in Government , I then went on to become Executive Director of united San Antonio and enjoyed that very much. M: Uh huh. C: And I am now in a new career in private enterprise. And so far as I'm concerned, I look forward to a lot more years of being able to do things in the community. I still have other things I want to pursue . And so I think it 's kind of fun to see new opportunities at different stages of our lives. M: Uh huh. C: One of my big outside activities this next year is that I 'm going to be President of the San Antonio Festival . M: I noticed that! That's quite a challenge. C: That's quite a challenge because we ended up the last season in debt, somewhere between four and five thousand dol lars. M: I know. C: But never the less , it brings something really special to the city and I'll see what I can do to help out there. COCKRELL 50 M: You will, too. And I think it's growing, and it's a marvelous contribution to this community. Nobody thought it would be successful in the first place and it was. And the second was even more so, and it's just going to grow and grow and it's going to be a great thing . I was so glad when they chose you to do it because you have the experience and you'll do it right. C: Oh, one other thing, just in closing up the tape, too. I am just real proud of the fact that in being able to pursue a career in government and politics, it was very thrilling and exciting at the close of that active career that my husband and I were still happily married. And we have a wonderful home life. M: This is another thing that I have observed with very great interest because it's unusual, Ma'am. C: I realize that . M: There are an awful lot of husbands that wouldn't have put up with it. C: Yes, I know, and he was very wonderful; very generous. M: He must be a great guy. I don't know him, but he must be wonderful because you have to have a man who has a certain security and respect for himself in order to share his wife with the community. C: That's true. That's true. M: He must be a great person. C: Yes, he's wonderful. M: You know the thing that--l've been watching a show on KLRN that's called, "Buddenbrooks." Have you been watching it? COCKRELL C: No. 51 M: It's a Thomas Mann novel that has been dramatized. It's terribly interesting, and I guess maybe that's why it's in my mind, because it is so stiff and the women were so subservient and what-no t back in those days, and I was thinking as you talked--in Victorian days, a woman of accomplishment was a woman who could sing or play the piano . . . or C: Yes, she'd do beautiful needlepoint. M: or she'd sew a fine seam, or she was just always these things. But a woman of accomplishment such as Lila Cockrell, is such a different kind of a person and so far removed from that era, and I got to th inking , "What would a Victorian lady of those days in the 19th Century think of a 'Lila Cockrell. '" We ' ve come a long way, haven't we? C: You know that reminds me of something, a funny little experi ence : One summer when I was still Mayor, we were vacationing up in British Columbia and we were on a tour. We were to go on just a little day's excursion when we were up in Jasper . And we found that the tour group was nearly all composed of Japanese visitors who had arrived. And, their group leader began conversing with us, we were the only Anglo-Americans in thi s little group , and he found out that I was Mayor of San Antonio . So he announced to the group that here I was Mayor of San Antonio, and he turned to an elderly Japanese lady, a very proper Japanese l ady who was with our group, and said to her, "I'ihat do you COCKRELL 52 c: think about that? This lady is Mayor of San Antonio." And she looks so sweet and she said, "Oh , I would have t o think about it." M: (laughter) C: ( laughter) It was a great shock to her but she wanted to be terribly po l i t e and not offend me as a visitor, a person she was just meeting, and she was so sweet, but she said, "Oh , I would have to think about that." M: (laught er) C: And it was an int eresting little experience . ( l aughter) M: I thank you . I do thank you so rouch
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